Torque setting for lug nuts.

Joe K said:
"You want to tighten them using the lug nut wrench you will use to remove them.
And maybe not even all that tight - just be sure you can remove them with difficulty when at the side of the road on a dark rainy night."
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Joe, I could not have put it better. In fact, I was just about to write something very similar.

On ANY of my cars, when it comes home from a shop visit that required a wheel to be taken off, I loosen all the lugs with a breaker bar and then put them back on with the lug wrench that lives in that car.

I have been on the side of the road on a dark rainy night cursing the mother of the guy that used that impact wrench.... Never again.

Ken
 
Growley bear said:
Also, the Model A wheels do not seem to fit the cast iron drums as well as they should. When installed some that I have seen did not contact the drum in the lug area as was evidenced by small cracks forming in the powder coated surface and the inability to torque the lug nuts to a firm 55 foot pounds. This was solved with a spacer and then 65 firm lbs.
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Possible reason for this.

Model A "AR" wheels must be installed ONLY on "AR" drums/ hubs.

Model A "B" wheels must be installed ONLY on "B" drums/hubs.

They should not be interchanged.

This is covered in Service Bulletin page 328 it says do not mix the two types.

Has drawing to show why this is a problem.
 
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Before these later Model A Forums discussing the "Model A Hobby Car" Restoration Era of today, I remember quite a few Model A's owned by (1) car poor people families that were traveling on gravel roads with only (2) lugs per wheel ..... middle class guys sometimes had (3) lugs per wheel ....... the rich had (4) -(5) lugs per wheel.

My $25.00 Model A in 1958 came with (2) wheels in the middle class style, and (2) in the poor class style. As a teenager, I soon lost one (2) lug wheel going to work one summer morning, and lost the other (2) lug wheel the following week coming back from work, both times riding with my older brother. Both were very lucky; but most dangerous experiences.

I went to the local blacksmith shop the following Saturday where our old experienced blacksmith removed all lugs and welded 1956 Ford lugs to all four (4) hubs.

He first drove out the old lugs, installed new lugs, installed the wheel, tightened the lug nuts, and after the wheel was tightened & aligned, he welded the back side of the lugs. Guess he felt sorry for a teenager driving a rust bucket Model A with sheet metal RC Cola signs replacing both side glasses .... for welding ...... he only charged fifty-cents per wheel.

I might forget where I placed my car keys last night; but while traveling at 45 mph, I'll never forget seeing (2) Model A wheels rolling ahead of me at top speed prior to my Model A wheel's backing plate scraping the asphalt.

As far as Model A wire wheel respect, if one knows somebody who ever lost just one (1) vintage Model A wheel while driving at only 45 mph, one will most likely see that this person checks the lug nuts on these 86 year old wheels just a little more often than those who never had this wonderful wild wheel learning experience.
 
I have to say its an easy thing to overtighten a lug nut with an air wrench. I've done it myself.

I have a better than average air wrench capable (according to the literature that came with it) of 650 ft-lbs. Thats a pretty large number for a 1/2 drive wrench and I always put a lot of that to advertising hubris. The usual available 3/4 drive wrench MAY be able to do 750 ft-lbs.

Still, at first before I got to know the wrench, I simply put the dial on the side at "1" (out of 6 positions available) and put the wrench on and tighten until the socket stops.

I did this to my son's VW with the alloy wheels. And then it came time shortly later to remove the lug-nuts. The low setting of "1" didn't budge them. Nor "2" or "5" or "6." Think galling of the alloy and friction?

I finally drove the VW over to my friend at the local farm who has a 3/4 drive air wrench. THAT worked - but you could see it was struggling.

Checking the alloy wheels afterwards, I didn't find the holes obviously stretched - but quite galled and dry at the alloy/lug-nut interface.

So unless you're quite sure of the repeat-ability of your air wrench or the correctness of your torque wrench, maybe set them finally with the "armstrong" method?

55 or 60 ft-lbs sounds like a number - but check for removal with the hand wrench afterwards.

Joe K
 
Benson said:
Possible reason for this.

Model A "AR" wheels must be installed ONLY on "AR" drums/ hubs.

Model A "B" wheels must be installed ONLY on "B" drums/hubs.

They should not be interchanged.

This is covered in Service Bulletin page 328 it says do not mix the two types.

Has drawing to show why this is a problem.
Click to expand...

So I guess that I should have said "the after market cast iron drums that are supposed to be direct replacements for the pressed/rolled steel drums which were on the Model A when it was new. The original wheels do not fit them in a similar fashion as shown in the bulletin, which by the way I have read more than once and does not apply to after market cast iron drums.
There is an approximate gap of .040 in between the wheel and drum and I am sure that this will vary between wheels and drums.
I know that spacers are available for "HYDRAULIC BRAKE DRUMS". However I can't remember seeing any mention of shims for my above concern. Is any one else familiar with this? The service bulletin wasn't written for cast iron brake drums manufactured in 2011 which were intended to replace original Ford OEM parts. My comment is that it has been, "MY EXPERIENCE", not my OPINION.
Growley Bear
 
"There is an approximate gap of .040 in between the wheel and drum and I am sure that this will vary between wheels and drums."

Is the gap at the 5 mounting holes, or is the gap at the wheel hub that should rest against the brake drum?
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
"There is an approximate gap of .040 in between the wheel and drum and I am sure that this will vary between wheels and drums."

Is the gap at the 5 mounting holes, or is the gap at the wheel hub that should rest against the brake drum?
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The gap is across the complete face of the drum and the wheels contact the drum on the outer diameter just at the radius where the drum folds over to form the shoe contact area. This is because the cast drums have more meat in this area than the stamped steel drums, so the outer diameter of the drum is a touch larger. I read about this some time ago but can't remember where.
The steel drum will nest quite nicely into the wheel but the after market drum not so much. I am wondering if other Model A owners have experienced this. I know of one person other than myself.
 
I removed one of the wheels to jog the old memory and now need to back track a little.
The wheel outer edge of the center was contacting the drum in a 360 about 7/16 in from the outer radius of the drum. The rib stamped between the lug holes and the outer edge of the wheel center was also contacting the drum in a 360. So, yes, the lug bearing portion of the wheel was the part not contacting the hub/drum area.
Further inspection reveals that the center of the drum has a lip formed into the edge which extends toward the outer end of the hub. This lip forms a step where there should not be a step at the junction of hub and drum. There one can also observe heavy contact points in five distinct locations just inside the lug area circumference of the wheel.
I can post some photos later if need be.
Chet
 
So far it sounds like a good contact pattern to me.
I'd want the two contact rings you mentioned and I'd not want the lug holes to contact the surface until the lug nuts are tight.
 
Les Andrews red book says 64 foot pounds for dry lug nuts. It is the torque setting I use and never had a problem...
 
check your nuts more often if you have stainless steel lug shims they seem to loosen up after a while
 
Original 21" wheels torqued to 60 ft lbs, after 1200 miles on Randy Gross cast iron drums.
 

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denniskliesen said:
Original 21" wheels torqued to 60 ft lbs, after 1200 miles on Randy Gross cast iron drums.
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Did you use original wheel nuts or modern repops?

The moderns are known for having the cone too long (or lack of thread recess) which prevent them from fully engaging the holes in the wheel. It seems tight - and it is - but not tight to the wheel.

Joe K
 
Joe K said:
Did you use original wheel nuts or modern repops?

The moderns are known for having the cone too long (or lack of thread recess) which prevent them from fully engaging the holes in the wheel. It seems tight - and it is - but not tight to the wheel.

Joe K
Click to expand...

Also, I've seen some repro nuts with pretty shallow threads, which can easily strip out.
 
I'm not sure the rating of an impact wrench mean anything. A 650# rating would surly twist off a stud. I bought a new HF electric impact wrench rated at 250#. I tightened the lugs to max for the impact then checked them with a torque wrench. Each was between 50 and 55#. Just what I wanted for lug nuts. 250# is BS.
 
captndan said:
I'm not sure the rating of an impact wrench mean anything. A 650# rating would surly twist off a stud. I bought a new HF electric impact wrench rated at 250#. I tightened the lugs to max for the impact then checked them with a torque wrench. Each was between 50 and 55#. Just what I wanted for lug nuts. 250# is BS.
Click to expand...

Yup. A "REAL" impact wrench in 650ft-lb style is a behemoth. Think for every action an equal and opposite reaction.

The 3/4 drive I used at the farm WAS likely a 750ft-lb wrench. But it also weighs about 4x the weight of my 650 Harbor Freight. Which is a good wrench (never had a problem except for stalling at the "0" setting of six.)

Harbor Freight wrench shown below.

62627_alt_500.png


This their "Earthquake" 1/2 drive wrench. Even HF seems unsure as to what number to put to this. Written description says 800ft-lb, other written says 700ft-lbs. Not sure it really matters as likely neither number is correct.

For getting things apart it seems to work well - most of the time. For putting together, it ain't a torque wrench.

Joe K
 
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