Timing help, some clarification

2

28Danby

Member
Looking for some clarification or insight. I know there are lots of threads started on timing but I am still having some issues.
The engine is recently rebuilt, rad flushed professionally and rebuilt distributor. New points, condenser and coil. Point gap is 0.020 and rotor to plugs is 0.025” and full retard (lever up)
I found TDC, and using the Nu-Rex wrench, I turned the wrench CLOCKWISE 2 turns til the arrow matched up to the #4 pin and tightened the rotor screw. The tail end of the rotor is on the #1 cylinder with zero (overhang?) if you get my drift. The points are open at this point. Am I wrong to think these should be just closed? As if you turn the rotor with the ignition on we should get that snap?
I have timed it with a light as well, loosened the rotor to the points just closing and getting that “snap” as well as the light on and off but just within the play of the rotor/distributor. This also leaves more “overhang” on the back side unlike the nu-Rex way, as it shows in the picture below
When I then put the button-Rex wrench on, I’m passed the #4 pin by the whole diameter.
The car is running hot (200F) and these variances are kinda throwing me for a loop. I drive mostly highway speed, spark advance 9 o’clock or so but I do find a lack of power going up hills still and I figure this is all advance/retard/timing etc.
I also had a nice gunfire style backfire after I turned the key off.
Any recommendations or advice would be great.

The attached pics are following the timing light adjustment, point gap just closed but enough to open with the play and make spark. It is also off the pin diameter using the wrench as a check.

Thanks

Gibby
 

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There is one final check you can make to see if you have your engine timed correctly. Put the engine at TDC, be sure your spark advance lever is all the way up, be sure the top plate of the distributor spark rod connects is against the distributor body, put the clamp of your test light onto the point arm, turn your key on, ground your test light to a head stud, and start click by click to bring your spark advance lever down. If your light comes on within the first two clicks, you are spot on.
Good Luck!!
P.S. Always be sure you do not have any slack in the distributor shaft. In other words, the rotor should be clockwise tight against the distributor shaft.
 
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This is a problem I've come across several times. The root cause is that the Nu-Rex wrench, believe it or not, is not always good for timing the Nu-Rex upper plate with modern points. It is perfect for timing the stock points, but for some reason, the Nu-Rex plate positions the modern points in a different spot.

The Nu-Rex wrench doesn't know where the points are – it positions the cam in relation to the distributor body. But on their upper plate, putting the cam in that spot causes the rubbing block to be riding slightly up the cam lobe already at TDC.

That's why you're getting different results with the wrench versus with the light. My recommendation with that upper plate is to use the light.
 
The spark fires just as the points open. Retard the spark (lever all the way up) and rotate the engine by hand with the crank until the pin drops in the detent in timing gear. The point should be closed but just starting to open. Move the rotor counter clockwise and the point should open. You can tell if they are opening by having the high tension wire from the coil about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch away from the head or head bolts and the ignition on. Or use an ohm meter. You can move the rotor clockwise and then counter clockwise several times at this engine position to watch the point open or the spark or meter.

When you are driving the car, set the throttle with the hand lever and move the spark advance lever to find the knee in the timing curve. This is where retarding the spark will cause the engine to slow down but advancing it will not make any change. This position or one click retarded is where you should be running the car. You can retard it one or two clicks when running under load, especially at lower rpm. You can advance the timing one click when driving at a constant high speed on level ground.

If you still have cooling issues, the cause is not likely in the ignition system. It could be that the car is lean. You should run with a the GAV (gas adjustment valve) a little open. Experiment with the GAV to determine the best position for the engine. It will be a little further open when the engine is cold. If this does not help then try cleaning out your cooling system and take a good look at your radiator. If it is old or of low quality then this could be the problem.

The recommended gap for the plugs is 0.035 inch.
 
use the red book system, I found the new rex off the same amount. Not blaming nu rex, just found the red book system to be more spot on.
 
The early Nurex tools did not rely on the distributor body contacts for anything. I still prefer them. I set #1 at TDC using the timing pin and use the tool to move the cam CLOCKWISE (so that any slack is taken out of the process). I use a light globe across the points to tell me when they CLOSE. The globe goes out when they close. At that moment, screw down the cam and you're good. The other method is to use a piece of cellophane like say, a sweet wrapper between the points. As soon as the points grip the cellophane, clamp it down.
Because I am rotating the cam in the opposite direction to its normal rotation, I have removed all slack from the system and what would be points opening (the coil fires), closing happens at the same place as opening will when the cam is turning in the opposite direction.
I strongly believe people go to too much trouble setting the timing. So what if it is not set 100% and is out by a few degrees. Once we start driving the car, we change the timing with the lever so what feels right. Using either of the above methods ahs served me well for decades.
 
28Danby said:
Looking for some clarification or insight. I know there are lots of threads started on timing but I am still having some issues.
The engine is recently rebuilt, rad flushed professionally and rebuilt distributor. New points, condenser and coil. Point gap is 0.020 and rotor to plugs is 0.025” and full retard (lever up)
I found TDC, and using the Nu-Rex wrench, I turned the wrench CLOCKWISE 2 turns til the arrow matched up to the #4 pin and tightened the rotor screw. The tail end of the rotor is on the #1 cylinder with zero (overhang?) if you get my drift. The points are open at this point. Am I wrong to think these should be just closed? As if you turn the rotor with the ignition on we should get that snap?
I have timed it with a light as well, loosened the rotor to the points just closing and getting that “snap” as well as the light on and off but just within the play of the rotor/distributor. This also leaves more “overhang” on the back side unlike the nu-Rex way, as it shows in the picture below
When I then put the button-Rex wrench on, I’m passed the #4 pin by the whole diameter.
The car is running hot (200F) and these variances are kinda throwing me for a loop. I drive mostly highway speed, spark advance 9 o’clock or so but I do find a lack of power going up hills still and I figure this is all advance/retard/timing etc.
I also had a nice gunfire style backfire after I turned the key off.
Any recommendations or advice would be great.

The attached pics are following the timing light adjustment, point gap just closed but enough to open with the play and make spark. It is also off the pin diameter using the wrench as a check.

Thanks

Gibby
Click to expand...


Looking at your photos, it appears that the "modern" points you're using are mounted in the incorrect position on the upper plate.
 
I was taught the "Ford" method in the 1950's and still use it, Never had a problem with that method.

From the Ford service manual:

1. Fully retard spark lever.
2. Check gap between breaker contact points and if necessary adjust them as described on page 28.
3. Screw out timing pin located in timing gear cover (see Fig. 10) and insert opposite end of pin into opening.
4. With the starting crank turn the engine over slowly, at the same time pressing in firmly on the timing pin. When the piston reaches the end of the compression stroke the timing pin will slip into a small depression in the camshaft gear.
5. With the pin in place, remove the distributor cover and lift off rotor and distributor body.
6. Loosen cam locking screw until cam can be turned.
7. Replace rotor and turn it until the rotor arm is opposite No. 1 contact point in distributor head.
8. Withdraw rotor from cam and slightly turn the cam in a counter clockwise direction until the breaker points just start to open, then securely tighten cam locking screw.
9. Replace rotor and distributor cover.
10. Withdraw timing pin from depression in time gear and screw it back tightly into the timing gear cover.
 
Looking at your first picture it appears there may be a problem w/the distributor cam. Maybe it's just the angle of the picture, can't see the lobes. Are all 4 there? Are they of the correct height?
 
It’s been a while since I’ve been on here as life happens, but an update to my overheating problem that I thought was timing. After many trials and tribulations it came down to a head gasket/torque problem.
Initially, I re-torqued as per specs to 55f/lbs after warming to operating temp. Now, when we did the initial retorque on the second pass (45ish ft/lbs) the water neck broke. Thankfully I had a spare, cut a paper gasket and continued with the retorque. Took all the nuts to 55.
Took it for a spin and noticed overheating and thought maybe timing, water pump, belt etc etc. Tried it all but still had overheating. At times I thought it could have been the head gasket but had no evidence of it in the oil or exhaust.
Anywhos, after some bumbling around and some more drive time/troubleshooting, we saw ever so tiny bubbles in the rad.
Checked the torque on the forward/water neck studs and they moved at 20. I slowly brought them up to 55 in sequence and all seemed good after a few days of driving.
I drove it into town the other day after sitting a bit and found it overheating again. Got home and again, the front studs were at 25-30.
Is this normal? It’s a copper head gasket with new studs. I figure things would relax a little bit but not to this degree. I deal with lots of bolted flanges and gaskets that require your torquing/re-torque, but this seems off.
 
It sounds like you are doing things mostly correctly. This post is not so much for you but for a general audience. There are just a few things that I think you should do differently.

The coolant outlet (goose neck) can crack easily when any kind of gasket is used. Use just a smear of gasket cement on cleaned surfaces.

The head nut torque should be checked with the engine cold. I let mine wait overnight. The gaskets take a set so it is typical that the torque has to be checked several times after new gaskets are used.


  1. After new gaskets, start the engine and let it warm up for about 15 minutes at a fast enough idle so that the generator/alternator is charging the battery. Set the spark lever at the normal driving position. Turn off the engine and let it cool overnight.
  2. Re-torque the nuts.
  3. Drive the car about 100 miles. Let it cool overnight.
  4. Re-torque the nuts.
  5. Drive the car about 1,000 miles. Let it cool overnight
  6. Re-torque the nuts.
  7. Re-torque the nuts once a year or sooner. It doesn't hurt the engine to re-torque more often.


The sequence for re-torquing does not matter but you can follow the sequence published for new head gaskets if you want. You should not have to back off the nuts, but if you do only do one nut at a time. Start at 30 foot-pounds and increase the torque by 5 foot-pounds until you get to 55 foot-pounds. If you cannot get to 55 foot-pounds then you may have a stud that is pulling out of the block.

A head gasket leak may not introduce coolant into the oil or oil into the coolant or steam in the exhaust. The gasket may only leak when the high pressure of combustion forces gas into the coolant. A gas analyzer in the radiator neck or the bubbles in the coolant may be the only indication of a gasket leak.
 
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I didn't read, in detail, responses to your problem but it seems obvious that the rotor it rubbing against the condenser which would mean the rotor is riding higher than normal and the condenser probably is "leaking" where the rotor is making contact. I might add that Paul Shinn tested new condensers that go on the upper plate and they ALL failed! LRF
 
I have the modern points and my condensor is smaller in diameter. I have had the best luck with Blue Steak points and condensors, part numbers FD813V and FD77. The points have a felt pad that holds oil to lubricate the cam. I have read that the new ones are not as good as the older versions but I don't know if that is true. I have found old-new-stock at swap meets and online.
 
nkaminar said:
I have the modern points and my condensor is smaller in diameter. I have had the best luck with Blue Steak points and condensors, part numbers FD813V and FD77. The points have a felt pad that holds oil to lubricate the cam. I have read that the new ones are not as good as the older versions but I don't know if that is true. I have found old-new-stock at swap meets and online.
Click to expand...

That's FD8183V not FD813V
 
Alex, Thanks for the correction on the part number. As I get older I find that I am making a lot more typo's. Expeciously wen I git en a hurrry.
 
1crosscut said:
Have you been able to solve your issues yet?
Click to expand...

It all pointed to a bad head gasket around the #1 cylinder.
I pulled the head and there was some indication of a little coolant in the cylinder. Not enough to show in the oil or exhaust, but enough to leak combustion gases into the water neck giving me a (false) higher temp reading as that is where the probe is.
1crosscut messaged me and gave some good insight to it and a great idea on seating the new gasket. I just finished slapping it back together and will update after a few more torques and a drive or 2.

Thanks everyone for the help and insight.

Gibby
 
For years i have been using Permatex2 and no gasket on the water neck with great results.

On a recently installed 6.1 head with grade 8 bolts i tourqed all the nuts to 60 PSI and no problems.

28, it is very common after the 1st tourque that the nuts will loosen up. I have not seen the nuts drop down to 25 as in your case.
 
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