There are cheats among us

garrisonm89@yahoo.com

garrisonm89@yahoo.com

BANNED
I hate liars, and I hate thieves. I bought my '21 T last year from a farmer here in Central Minnesota. I had wanted a T for many years. I'd seen one the year before at a swap meet. I was able to hear it run and though it was somewhat rusty and it had a leaky water pump I fell in love with it. But being married at the time and always interested in keeping my bride happy was more important than owning a Model T. Well boys I'm here to tell you, it's impossible to keep them happy. But the bottom line is; I didn't buy the T. So last year when my bride and I split the sheets and I went my own way the first thing I did was go out and buy my '21 touring car. I found it listed on Craigslist. The ad said it had been restored and was in excellent condition.

I knew not knowing much about Model Ts was pretty risky but I thought the motor sounded pretty good on this one and it looked exactly like what I was looking for. And besides for a totally restored car, though it was an old restoration, I figured it was a real good price. The guy who sold it to me said it had been restored years earlier but had only been run in a few parades and in the last 10 years hadn't left his farm. And how can you not trust a farmer. They're God's people right? Not this SOB So I gave him his money and headed for home.

Within a month I realized, even with a water pump, it was prone to overheating. Then one day on my way home from a trip it was overheating exceptionally bad. I got about 2 miles from home and I had to stop for water. I pulled into a park and filled a gallon jug with cold water and after the engine cooled down a little I poured the cold water in the radiator refilled the jug and took off for the house. About a mile later the top split on the top of the radiator and water was running out of it pretty fast. But I slowed it down put the last jug of water in and drove it easy for home. But before I got home it bogged down and lost power. I made it home but not before scoring #2 cylinder.

Then last fall while getting ready a tour, while driving it the evening before it died while on the magneto. I ran it home on battery and started checking it out. First the switch, and the wiring and anything else I thought might be the problem. In the end I tied it down to too much endplay in the crankshaft and tore it down. I spent the winter rebuilding the transmission that had never been apart except when I changed the bands because those in the car were wore out before I'd bought it. I found broken drums, worn bushings and a few blue clutch discs. The magnets on the magneto were not magnetic and the magneto coils were screwed up where someone had beat the hell out of it while trying to pull the starter out.

So by that time the radiator was new, the magneto was rebuilt, number 2 cylinder was reworked and had new rings in it, I had replaced the coils, rebuilt the carburetor, put in new rear wheel seals that had been leaking, replaced broken brake shoes, replaced bands in the transmission, rebuilt the transmission, replaced the timer, and now I've lost count. And now for the rest of my story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5IYbWnd6hI&feature=channel&list=UL

And now I'm telling you. If somebody tells you, your Model T's been restored, they're more than likely lying. Even with receipts, photographs, and whatever other proof they're offering they're more than likely lying. I'm saying this because in the last month, I've seen at least 2 other Model Ts that were supposedly restored and turned out to be the same as mine. These are people in the same club I'm in. And they were sold by liars who stole money from them.

So the moral to all this is; there are very few honest men out there selling Model T's. Make damn sure you were there to see them restored if they say they were restored.

One last thing; After buying my touring car, I answered an ad for a '26 T sedan. The fella said it ran good but never said a word about being restored, rebuilt or for that matter I don't know if he said anything about replacing parts or repairing it. Well it ran, rough, and it drove poorly, but the transmission and rearend weren't excessively noisy and the magneto worked. There weren't any loud knocks but it missed like crazy. The radiator was old but didn't lead and there was a waterpump on it that shouldn't have been so I took it off. He asked a fair price for an old model t and never made it out to be anything but what it was. Heck it's still got the original interior in it. And I drive it everyday and I can count on it. So I'd really like to thank Bob Peterson from Kenyon Minnesota for being an honest man. He's a member of the T-Totalers Model T Club of Minnesota.

Oh, and if Devil Anse comes looking for to sell you a model t ford. Don't trust him either.
 

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I don't mean to rub your nose in it but here's my T experience in a nutshell: The first one, a '27 Touring was from an estate sale. The car was totally done. I got it cheap and it ran great but actually I knew very little about T's. But the third one, a '23 Touring, I was told by the former owner it was only paraded. First thing I did when looking it over? Pull the trans cover and check the works as best as possible. By this time I knew T's well enough to really make a sensible judgement about this 85 year old car. Apparently neither of us had this know-how the first time out. Very few people do and they jump at the car because "it's available and I want it". 3 cars and 12 years later I can, with assurance, check out T and decide if it's for me or not and believe me I've passed up more than I've owned. You didn't just buy a better car the second time by dumb luck. Your experience/expertise was working even if you didn't realise it.
 
The point of the above rant is you may have been actually cheated or the guy told you what he thought he knew about a car he didn't use much. I'm not giving him a pass but if you knew more then you might have passed the car up.
 
When the guy sold me the car last summer, he said it was a total restoration. He restores Oliver tractors to showroom perfect. He well known for his tractors. He knows damn well what totally restored means. I've been a shadetree mechanic all my life. When I was in the military I kept gun trucks, jeeps, APC's, deuce and a halves and anything else they brought in right up until I went out in the bush. I've worked with flathead eights, small block Chevies, Y-blocks and a few big blocks. When I was six years old my old man put me under his '45 Ford and take off the oilpan while he ran in to Western Auto to get inserts. I've built hotrods and show cars. I've got some mechanical background. But, when some ****** sells me a restored Model T that everything on the outside is pretty and everything on the inside is **** then I think I got screwed. I'll admit it was the first Model T I've bought so there was a lack of knowledge involved with the purchase. But this guy lied through his teeth. One last point. The only thing your going to see by pulling the plate off the top of a transmission is if it has the guts in it. And unless there's something radically wrong with it you cant tell **** by looking in the transmission.
 
There are a lot of people who will take advantage of someone with less knowledge than themselves. When I was a kid, I bought a model A motor from a guy who told me it was rebuilt. I guess new paint and gaskets meant rebuilt. I took off the front main crank bearing cap and could lift the crankshaft a quarter inch with the center cap and rear cap tight. Imagine doing that to a kid. Then about 20 years ago I bought a model T touring from a local guy who claimed the engine and transmission and rear were all rebuilt. The engine was junk, and had a cracked crankshaft, the transmission was worn out, and had cracked drums, and the rear end was so bad the teeth would skip. My mother always said "dont crap in your own back yard" but this guy was only 2 roads over, and treated me like that. He has screwed enough people that he now has a reputation, but I was ignorant at the time.
Buyer beware.
 
You can't see cracked drums or worn out lining? You have a friend with you as I did to crank it over and you open your eyes and you look. just about every thing you describe in your initial post would have been seen and found if you: 1, knew something about T's initially and checked things out and 2, took it on a test drive. I've been in the trade professionally for 40+ years and when I got my first T I was told by a club member "forget everthing you think you know. This is a different animal". He was right and I learned. I just got lucky on my first T in that it was actually done over and I had no one to lie to me.
 
I love to work on T's that's a big part of the hobby. You learn from your mistakes, You purchased a very old car, don't expect not to have any problems with it. The challenge is to keep them running. When I sell a car the customer gets a photo history of the rebuilding process, no matter how good a job is done there is still a potential for problems. Learn to enjoy your self and stop calling every guy who sells a car a crook. There are lots of great, nice, people in this hobby. Just my humble opion. Frank
 
Absolutely CORRECT Frank...! There are still many unscrupulous sellers out there as well as those who think that a set of rings and a rustoleum paint job constitute a restoration. Half the fun of these cars is being able to make them run / be roadworthy again. Not withstanding, if you want a 100 point car thats a shrine to perfection you wouldnt want to drive it after you bleach whited the NON-SKID tires' treads.
Mikes point was that as a new model T guy, he trusted (his fault, granted!) the sellers statement that the car was totally restored. Knowing Mike personally, I can tell you the guy is no dummy, just didnt know model Ts too well. I can tell you this, that now he is well on the way to becoming an exspurt. These cars were only new once.
So now its come to my attention, that one of the better contributors has been banned from the FB... I find THAT to really be a shame. It was a case of pitting one member against another with some loss of temper.
After this 12 year old kid situation, I had my peepee spanked across the hall, spoke my mind, and then withdrew. I thought that this place was a little different, and the guys here were a bit more manly.
I run a boat forum, that is UN CENSORED. Period. Unless something was directed as a threat to national security, or promoted physical abuse, or kiddy ****, speak your piece. In holding with that attitude, theres a section called the black water tank. Thats a sewage tank on a boat. Thats where you take threds that are not propper for the general reading populace to read, and a minimum of 25 posts are required in the general forum before the BWT password is forwarded. That keeps new people or lurkers from reading adult oriented (and that aint sex stuff BTW) with out being a confirmed member. Plain and simple.
I really hate rants! I type with 3 fingers and being long winded really wipes me out! All I can say is that I spent 35 years in a power plant with a crew of 200 of the worst foul mouthed roughnecks that you could imagine, and to survive that scenario, youd better have some thick skin!
So now, I wish it were as simple as the THREE offenders to kiss and make up, and get on with the business of manly business. Pun intended! ws
 
The good-looking mechanically crappy car rings a bell with me. It turned out that I overpaid for my touring because I didn't know enough to check some things. It's a stock 1923 touring with no modern "improvements", which is what I wanted. It had what I call a twenty-foot restoration. It looks great from twenty feet away, but when you get up close you see the Phillips screws & other modern fasteners, the plastic insulation on some of the wiring, and a few other errors. Still, it's a nice-looking car. But the guys who did the body ignored the mechanics. The front end bushings, bearings, and hangers were so worn out that when I jacked it up and shook a wheel everything flopped around like a bobble head doll. So I've reworked all that and the steering's a lot less exciting than it used to be. The NH dripped gas because the bowl was rusted through, so I rebuilt the whole thing. I stuck my finger in the rear axle filler hole and it came out with silver oil and little chunks of babbitt, so I rebuilt the rear axle.

Was the guy who sold me this car a crook? He told me it was restored in the sixties. Was he lying? Probably not. This was an older fellow with lots of dough, and he hired the work done on his vehicles. I think he was blissfully unaware of all the mechanical problems. In fact, he thought the starter was shot when all it needed was a new battery. Sometimes the guy who says a car with big defects is "restored" is lying, but sometimes he's just clueless.
 
You got it Steve. Check, check, check. At least you had the knowledge and made your assessment from there. 1960 restoration? A lot can happen in 50+years! The guy that sold me my '23 Touring never mentioned restoration. Only that he owned it for 10 years but some body had a good time replacing stuff on the car. Interior like new, tight quiet engine, ect. I still brought my jack, a friend, some rags and a flashlight and went over it + a test drive. Like you I made a some what knowledgeable assessment. Who am I kidding? One look at this car and I wanted it. My first T was another story. I knew squat and got lucky.
 
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