Synthetic oil

[Mitch//pa]

Ask Mobil

What's the Zinc Level of Mobil 1 15W-50?

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Question: What's the Zinc Level Mobil 1 15W-50?Hello, I read your answer about ZDDP and phosphorus levels. You even list the phosphorus level in your table, but you show no listing for the level of zinc. Other oil companies also list their zinc level. I would like to know the zinc content in your 15W-50 oil. I would like the level for the gold cap and the silver cap separately. I drive a car that is over 20 years old and the answer is important to me. Thank you, Jerry-- Jerry Baer, Hollywood, FL

Answer: The important element here is the phosphorus since it is the active antiwear additive. That's why we show phosphorus as well as zinc. The zinc content is in the range of 0.12 - 0.13 weight percent (1200 - 1300 ppm).

 

[Mitch//pa]

Ask Mobil

Pros and Cons of Putting Synthetic Motor Oil in a Ford Model A

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. We'll share the questions and their answers here.

Question: Pros and Cons of Putting Synthetic Motor Oil in a Ford Model AI have an antique 1929 Model A Ford. I'm trying to be as nice as I can to the old girl. Would there be any advantage or disadvantages to using a synthetic motor oil in this vehicle? Right now I am using conventional 10W-30 with a can of STP per oil change.-- Wayne Askew, Salt Lake City, UT

Answer: We assume this is a relatively low mile vehicle. As such using full synthetic oil may not be cost effective. As you already know, there are many advantages to using Mobil 1 in a vehicle but we are not sure many would be top of the list for your vehicle. We think there are still some good reasons for using a synthetic, including better high temperature viscometrics, by using Mobil 1 15W-50 in place of your current conventional oil plus an oil additive. Use of an oil additive can lead to higher levels of piston deposits and by using Mobil 1 you will minimize these deposits and also possibly clean up any sludge deposits.

 

[rob mcdonald]

My wife and i visited Jay Leno's three car buildings including the Big Dog Garage in Nov. 2006. There was so much to see but one of the items I saw were cases of every specification Mobil 1 synthetic oil. I asked and found this was the oil of choice for Antique, Classic, Hot Rod, Motor Cycle, and new cars at the Big Dog Garage. Jay had cars for 1906 through 2006 then and all were Mobil ! Synthetics.

 

[V4F]

boy this is can of worms . i researched oil for about a yr. i wanted the best for my new motor . epa has made the manufactures take the zddp out of oils for epa reasons . even out of the deisel oils . the only oil i found with zddp is valvoline racing oil . zddp is to protect flat tappet cams , etc. new cars no longer use this system , ie: over head cams . i use valvoline VR-1 20/50 for the zddp content . works good for me ! ................. steve

 

[Mitch//pa]

boy this is can of worms . i researched oil for about a yr. i wanted the best for my new motor . epa has made the manufactures take the zddp out of oils for epa reasons . even out of the deisel oils . the only oil i found with zddp is valvoline racing oil . zddp is to protect flat tappet cams , etc. new cars no longer use this system , ie: over head cams . i use valvoline VR-1 20/50 for the zddp content . works good for me ! ................. steve

according to this chart 15/50 still has adequate levels


The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.

 

[Old182]

Mitch is right regarding the phosphorus in ZDDP. It is the phosphorus that EPA has targeted because phosphates attack the noble metals used in catalytic converters and eventually cause them to become inefficient. But before panicing about the removal of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (beloved ZDDP) from motor oils, we should consider a few things: First, when Model As were being built, ZDDP (and most if not all other additives) hadn't been invented yet. So, all Model A engines, when new, never saw ZDDP, yet they somehow managed to survive all these years anyway. Second, ZDDP was first used as an antioxidant in the mid-1930s, not as an antiwear additive. It's antiwear properties were discovered when engine builders began making more power with higher speeds and higher compression ratios leading to higher engine loads. Third, Model A engines simply don't produce the loads that require an additive like ZDDP to prevent excessive wear - the data proves this. There are essentially 3 criteria used to determine valve gear loads: 1. Valve gear forces increase with the square of piston speed. In slow turning engines, such as ours, valve gear forces are relatively low. 2. Valve gear loads increase with the square of valve lift. Again, with relatively low lift cam profiles, loads are low. 3. Stresses on valve gear increase with the square of the bore/stroke ratio. So, engines with longer strokes than bore diameters will tend toward lower valve gear stress. All this supports the data that shows Model A engines just don't fail from premature camshaft or lifter wear. A fourth criteria, although not directly related to mechanical load, is that thermal stresses increase with increasing valve face diameter; we have small valves. Your neighbor's 427 tri-power Corvette may need ZDDP (or something similar), but our slow turning, low-load engines simply do not. BTW, the fellow (or gal) from Mobil 1 correctly warns against mixing certain additives with fully-formulated motor oils - they can be antagonistic with the additives already in the oil and can cause other problems. MrTube: Lower volatility will reduce oil consumption. Well, I guess that's about $0.03.

 

[rob mcdonald]

I respect the many perspectives. All of your points are well founded.

I do disagree on the additive packages having a short life in synthetics. Liquid engineering provides the additive packages to match the longer life of synthetics. There are fleets of trucks and buses experimenting with 50,000 to 100,000 mile oil changes with special filtering.

Tests show much more than double the effective motor life using synthetics versus conventional. The value of synthetics is a major drop in wear issues.

Many of the Model A folks are like me and are on a lower income levels and have tired Model A motors that we will struggle to afford rebuilding. Using synthetics can push the effective life of these tired motors out for years. Also Mobil 1 15W50 has the special additives for antique car flat tappet concerns.

If you are thinking about Synthetics there are just a few considerations: 1. how do make the transition, 2. how many miles do you drive per year, 3. are you considering a full flow filter, 4. and can I afford the $26 at Wal-Mart for 5 quarts of 15W50 Mobil 1 Synthetics?

Mobil 1 website
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Flat_Tappets_Collection.aspx

 

[Mike V. Florida]

...we should consider a few things: First, when Model As were being built, ZDDP (and most if not all other additives) hadn't been invented yet. So, all Model A engines, when new, never saw ZDDP, yet they somehow managed to survive all these years anyway. Second, ZDDP was first used as an antioxidant in the mid-1930s, not as an antiwear additive. It's antiwear properties were discovered when engine builders began making more power with higher speeds and higher compression ratios leading to higher engine loads. Third, Model A engines simply don't produce the loads that require an additive like ZDDP to prevent excessive wear - the data proves this. .

Very true!!

 

[Terry NJ]

A friend had a motorcycle engine repair business, only Harleys(shovel and panheads). Last year he had to go out of business and only does a few engine rebuilds on the side now for friends. He told me one of the reasons he lost business was the use of synthetic oil, he had engines that would have worn rings and valves(due to lean runs mostley) but the roller and plain sleeve main and cam bearings had no wear to speak of, years ago the Harleys would wear the bearings as fast as the rings and valves. I am an airplane A&P and synthetic oil is used throught out the industery, the companies wouldn't go to the expense if it didn't reduce wear.

When I had my plane, (Cessna 172N, 0320H2AD)I did most of the service work myself, with an A & P looking over my shoulder. We used Aero Shell 15/50. Changing O&F at 50 Hours. When , after 2400 hours, we put a new engine in, we did the breakin by using mineral oil for 10 hrs.
During that time we flew it at full throttle for five hours. Is Aero Shell a synthetic? (I don't know) This was a flying club with students and the planes saw all all sorts of pilots. Yet the planes never had engine failure. Not even the ones with 0320H2ADs. I considered the 400 extra hours to be a gift. We followed the AD about the additives carefully. I don't recall seeing any oils I would specifically say were synthetic. This was 1998, though.
Terry

 

[Old182]

Terry, the Lycoming "AD" engine required a special additive (can't think of it right now), or the use of Aeroshell oil because the Aeroshell had the additive in it, and was (or still is) the only oil approved by Lycoming for that engine. Aeroshell 15w50 is considered a semi-synthetic and, as the name implies, contains some synthetic properties and some, well, non-synthetic. I used the same oil in my Continental O-200 and O-470 because most of us consider it to be the best. The thing that separates piston aviation oils from PCMOs (passenger car motor oils), among other things, is that aviation oils are "ashless dispersant" (not the same as "AD" above). These dispersants are specifically designed to be used in engines that are operated at relatively high power setting (55% to 100%) and hot oil environments, and meant to go to TBO. Also, it should be kept in mind that aircraft engine cylinders are coated with hard finishes such as Cermichrome or others that require an aggresive break-in to seat the rings - hence the straight mineral oil break in for airplanes (some mechanics use scouring powder in the cylinders!). Automotive engines, particularly Model As, receive no such hard coat treatment and should be broken in the traditional way - with a passenger car motor oil.

 

[Terry NJ]

The letters AD are becoming confusing, Lycoming 0320H2 AD, The ashless dispersent AD, and the AD for Airworthiness Directive. There was an AD (Airworthiness Directive) issued for the H2AD that required an additive (I can't recall the number) be placed in the H2ADs. We put it in with the Aero Shell. I didn't know Aero Shell was exempted.
Terry

Terry, the Lycoming "AD" engine required a special additive (can't think of it right now), or the use of Aeroshell oil because the Aeroshell had the additive in it, and was (or still is) the only oil approved by Lycoming for that engine. Aeroshell 15w50 is considered a semi-synthetic and, as the name implies, contains some synthetic properties and some, well, non-synthetic. I used the same oil in my Continental O-200 and O-470 because most of us consider it to be the best. The thing that separates piston aviation oils from PCMOs (passenger car motor oils), among other things, is that aviation oils are "ashless dispersant" (not the same as "AD" above). These dispersants are specifically designed to be used in engines that are operated at relatively high power setting (55% to 100%) and hot oil environments, and meant to go to TBO. Also, it should be kept in mind that aircraft engine cylinders are coated with hard finishes such as Cermichrome or others that require an aggresive break-in to seat the rings - hence the straight mineral oil break in for airplanes (some mechanics use scouring powder in the cylinders!). Automotive engines, particularly Model As, receive no such hard coat treatment and should be broken in the traditional way - with a passenger car motor oil.

 

[Terry NJ]

Getting back to Mod A Fords, This Question is pertinent to me as I'm about to have my engine rebuilt and I'm wondering what oils I'm going to use in it. at first, I wass going to use sae 30- "Straight weight" oil. Why? Cause it's usually cheaper than multi grades and changing at 500 miles, it seems to be overkill and the waste of good oil to put anything more expensive in it. Also, My experience with my 1962 ford F-600 tells me this is a good idea. I had a 1962 F-600 that leaked badly on 10-30, but held in the sae 30 pretty good. Since then, I run all "primitive" engines, Lawn mowers, small tractors, etc. on sae 30. This has worked fine for me. So, The mod A is what I'd call a primitive engine. It follows that I would use sae 30 in it. Now, Im not so sure. I'm sure of one thing though, I want a filtration system in it.
Terry

 

[Old182]

Yes, the "AD" is confusing and there were those who rolled their eyes when they saw that someone had the Lycoming "AD" engine. The AD in the engine designation had nothing to do with the AD (Airworthiness Directive) that was issued for that engine because of it's premature camshaft wear - it was a coincidence. "AD oils" are just the jargon used in the industry to describe a non-break in aviation piston engine oil. I haven't been in the aviation game for some time now, but I remember that Aeroshell oils contained a phosphorus additive that may have been the major component of the additive Lycoming required for the engine. It was interesting that only Aeroshell contained the required additive, all other oils could only be used if the additive was purchased separately. My recollection.

 

[Terry NJ]

The 0320H2AD was a good engine IF you took that into account and pulled it through a few blades by hand before starting. And I was told the problem was only in the north. Not the deep south, where they had no freezing weather. As I said, The engine held together for 2400 hours and it was timed out at 2000. It saw all kinds of use as it was leased as a trainer.
Regards, Terry

P.S. The Cessna 332 is another coincidence!

Yes, the "AD" is confusing and there were those who rolled their eyes when they saw that someone had the Lycoming "AD" engine. The AD in the engine designation had nothing to do with the AD (Airworthiness Directive) that was issued for that engine because of it's premature camshaft wear - it was a coincidence. "AD oils" are just the jargon used in the industry to describe a non-break in aviation piston engine oil. I haven't been in the aviation game for some time now, but I remember that Aeroshell oils contained a phosphorus additive that may have been the major component of the additive Lycoming required for the engine. It was interesting that only Aeroshell contained the required additive, all other oils could only be used if the additive was purchased separately. My recollection.

 

[Old182]

Yes, Lycoming is a class act for sure. I got to know several of the folks from Williamsport and visited their plant twice. They donated an IO-360 that was set up at our research lab for testing and development of a high octane unleaded avgas - they were great people to deal with. Sorry for the non-Model A discusion.