stock rebuilt
- Thread starter burnette
- Start date
rotorwrench
Well-known member
It seems like there is a problem with size on the C69A engine bearings and they are hard to source. I think the shells were thicker or something like that. I know a lot of folks change them over to 8BA type bearings & rods. Maybe others are more experienced with them and can shed more light on this.
rotorwrench
Well-known member
The C69A had the replaceable shells like an 8BA but the Canadian engines had some different dimensions. I think it was just the rods. The cranks should be about the same as an 8BA but I've never looked at one to confirm that.
i took a few pictures ,but forgot my camera at the shop! i tried to phone rm motors but normand was gone ,they told me to phone back monday. plan was at first for a budget built,but i wouldn,t like to pull it back out once truck is running. i,m not after more HP. just a reliable engine. i got all the parts sorted in order if i need to reuse them.
i hope bearings are standard! they are the regular 2 shell bearing.
no one answered about the valve seals ,did they not have seals until the 50ies. and can i install seals on mushroom valves.
i will install a new oil for sure! in joe,s book it says years 1932 to 1953 50lbs ,nothing about engine models.
i hope bearings are standard! they are the regular 2 shell bearing.
no one answered about the valve seals ,did they not have seals until the 50ies. and can i install seals on mushroom valves.
i will install a new oil for sure! in joe,s book it says years 1932 to 1953 50lbs ,nothing about engine models.
How many miles on the odometer?? How much of a ridge in the cylinders? Are valve seats pitted? Are valve stems worn? Was it recently running?
You mention a "budget" and "stock rebuild". You could simply replace parts that are broken or worn out of factory specs. Your broken split valve guide can be replaced with a new split valve guide. I don't see a need to remove the studs. Your engine appears to be in pretty good condition in the pics.
Consider taking a Motors Manual approach. It worked quite well in the olden days.
Flat32
truck odometer said 70000miles,but the truck had an accident and cab was replaced at some point.
i was really tempted to reuse all the valve train! valves and seats are nice lifters to.
really can,t say what ridge measures ,hooks pretty good with your fingernail. but pistons came out easy!
Ol' Ron
Well-known member
Go to Max VP and buy a few books. It's rare to have wrist pin bearings bad, but if you must Change them it requires a special tool in a honing machine. That's why you need to do some research first. Unless you have allot of $$$$$ Know what your doing and WHY??? A stock rebuild is a very inexpensive build if you use the stuff that's good. Cam bearings very rearely ware out and some of the new ones are poor quality. So check the old ones befor you trash them. Rod bearings and mains might be reusable as well. If the engine has floating bearings it could go 250-300 for the bearings.. I like helping new people, but you have to start thinking.
thanks old ron! i did order a book should be in monday. next step will be to remove cam and check bearings. then i will pressure wash block with some sort of degreaser. and my next step will be to clean the block surface with studs installed. and hopfully get that done by next weekend. i can,t work on engine this weekend . hopfully i will end up with some sort of plan by then!
thanks for your help!!
thanks for your help!!
Bored&Stroked
Well-known member
As most said - get as educated as you can! From the few pictures that you posted, the engine appears to be in great shape. So - if you're really trying to stick to a budget, here are some thoughts:
1) Did you keep track of where the valves came out of, lifters, etc? Hopefully you did, because you'd want to know exactly which cylinder and port.
2) If the valve stems are good and there is enough material/margin in the heads, then they can work just fine. Are they as good as the 49-53 ones . . . not in our minds, but Ford used them from 32 - 48, so nothing inherently WRONG with them.
3) You absolutely need a shop that KNOWS how to do machine work on these engines - especially the valve train. It takes the right pilots/mandrels to do the seats correctly - most places don't have them. If you don't have a knowledgeable shop (with the right equipment), then what I'm about to say does not apply.
4) If the valves can be reground and the seats touched up (properly), then what you SHOULD end up with are valves that are too long and the mushroom stems will need to be ground to set the valve clearances. Nothing was adjustable. This is NOT a hard procedure, especially if you can use the same valves/lifters for every location - just takes a bit of time and patience (and knowledge).
5) There are no valve seals - no big deal . . . so it might pull in a bit of oil around the guide and through the split areas on the intakes.
6) If the bores are good, then you might just be able to use a ball-hone and get them ready for new rings.
7) Crank/Rods: This might be where it gets a bit sticky. Depending on which rods/bearings are in it - it may be cheaper/easier to replace them with more common ones. Can you post some pictures of your crank and rods and rod bearings.
8) If yours are the hard to find ones, then depending on whether your crank has one or two oil holes per rod journal - will determine your options. If it has two oil holes and you have the funny Canadian rods/bearings, then I would buy a NEW set of 49-53 style rods from SoCal Speedshop (about $225 - really nice late style rods). It is cheaper/better to buy a set of these NOS rods, then having to buy a used set and have them rebuilt). This allows you to run the late bearings (49-53) - which are fairly inexpensive as compared to the older 'full floaters' that Ford used in the USA from 32 - 48.
9) Piston Pins: It is rare to see them worn out - and if they are, then you can be sure your pistons are worn as well. There are no bushings in the pistons. The bushings are in the connecting rods. Again - cheaper/better to buy a new set from SoCal (rods).
You might get away with a totally budget rebuild and have a really nicely running stock engine. It has surely been done probably at least hundreds of thousands of times . . .
If you need anything, feel free to PM me.
Good Luck!
B&S
1) Did you keep track of where the valves came out of, lifters, etc? Hopefully you did, because you'd want to know exactly which cylinder and port.
2) If the valve stems are good and there is enough material/margin in the heads, then they can work just fine. Are they as good as the 49-53 ones . . . not in our minds, but Ford used them from 32 - 48, so nothing inherently WRONG with them.
3) You absolutely need a shop that KNOWS how to do machine work on these engines - especially the valve train. It takes the right pilots/mandrels to do the seats correctly - most places don't have them. If you don't have a knowledgeable shop (with the right equipment), then what I'm about to say does not apply.
4) If the valves can be reground and the seats touched up (properly), then what you SHOULD end up with are valves that are too long and the mushroom stems will need to be ground to set the valve clearances. Nothing was adjustable. This is NOT a hard procedure, especially if you can use the same valves/lifters for every location - just takes a bit of time and patience (and knowledge).
5) There are no valve seals - no big deal . . . so it might pull in a bit of oil around the guide and through the split areas on the intakes.
6) If the bores are good, then you might just be able to use a ball-hone and get them ready for new rings.
7) Crank/Rods: This might be where it gets a bit sticky. Depending on which rods/bearings are in it - it may be cheaper/easier to replace them with more common ones. Can you post some pictures of your crank and rods and rod bearings.
8) If yours are the hard to find ones, then depending on whether your crank has one or two oil holes per rod journal - will determine your options. If it has two oil holes and you have the funny Canadian rods/bearings, then I would buy a NEW set of 49-53 style rods from SoCal Speedshop (about $225 - really nice late style rods). It is cheaper/better to buy a set of these NOS rods, then having to buy a used set and have them rebuilt). This allows you to run the late bearings (49-53) - which are fairly inexpensive as compared to the older 'full floaters' that Ford used in the USA from 32 - 48.
9) Piston Pins: It is rare to see them worn out - and if they are, then you can be sure your pistons are worn as well. There are no bushings in the pistons. The bushings are in the connecting rods. Again - cheaper/better to buy a new set from SoCal (rods).
You might get away with a totally budget rebuild and have a really nicely running stock engine. It has surely been done probably at least hundreds of thousands of times . . .
If you need anything, feel free to PM me.
Good Luck!
B&S
macdonge
Senior Member
burnette... As the patriarch at RM, Normand tends to take Fridays off. When I first showed up there last April and asked if the outfit knew anything about machining Ford flathead V8's he immediately reached back behind his desk and passed me his personal business card with a picture of the gorgeous 1951 Ford Custom Club Coupe that he owns (powered with a 239 c.i. flattie). I knew right away that I'd come to the right place. A week later, when I dropped off the block, crankshaft, rods, pistons, etc., his older employees swarmed me and launched into a barrage of questions about the engine's origins. It was obvious they were keen to accept work on an old survivor. One picked up a connecting rod, tested my new piston pin in the small end bushing and, based just on his feel regarding the fit, immediately declared that the new bushings I'd brought along wouldn't be required. To me, this was another affirmation that I was leaving the engine with good people. I had them bore my block .060", take .010" off the crank mains and rod ends and regrind the valve seats.
Normand and his old lads also rebuild Model T engines. I've a neighbour on my street who owns a 1915 Model T who also attests to the quality of the work they do and the character of the people there.
Normand and his old lads also rebuild Model T engines. I've a neighbour on my street who owns a 1915 Model T who also attests to the quality of the work they do and the character of the people there.
how exactly do you adjust the valves in my engine. i,m thinking of grinding valve seats to see what i have exactly. and for budget reason if valves turn out good. when i rebuilt it i would try and adjust valves. i understand the principal,that if valve seats in lower ,the lash gets smaller. i assume you grind the mushroom stem, but with what . i suppose its got to be straight and not to rough!
crank ,should i get it only polished and not worry about the pin hole,s. there,s 2 pin hole on 2 different connecting rod. i should of taken a better shot of the connecting rod bearing. pin hole doesn,t even do a mark on bearing!
normand at rm motor only wants to do a complete job,i understand him not wanting any patch work.
crank ,should i get it only polished and not worry about the pin hole,s. there,s 2 pin hole on 2 different connecting rod. i should of taken a better shot of the connecting rod bearing. pin hole doesn,t even do a mark on bearing!
normand at rm motor only wants to do a complete job,i understand him not wanting any patch work.
GB SISSON
Well-known member
One older machinist told me that rust pits just hold more oil. I had some in a bore and was really worried about it and he said back in the sixties he raced volkswagens and they would put dimples in the bores with a dremel tool just for the extra oiling, so not to worry.
flatheadmurre
Well-known member
Just measure the size of bore and crankpins.
If they are within wear limit they will polish/hone and be good to run.
A rustspot down in the bore can look pretty bad and not affect the performance, higher up in the cylinder it´s more of an issue.
Taking an engine apart and putting it togetter after just cleaning is fine as long as you keep track of what went where.
If you start adding new parts a bit of ridge reaming and honing/polishing is needed to make it work.
When the taper of the bore gets over .007 the sealing of the rings aren´t as good as manufacturers want them but still will work.
Only split guide taking a seal was the C type that uses an O-ring same as later style so look how the groove on yours is machined.
If they are within wear limit they will polish/hone and be good to run.
A rustspot down in the bore can look pretty bad and not affect the performance, higher up in the cylinder it´s more of an issue.
Taking an engine apart and putting it togetter after just cleaning is fine as long as you keep track of what went where.
If you start adding new parts a bit of ridge reaming and honing/polishing is needed to make it work.
When the taper of the bore gets over .007 the sealing of the rings aren´t as good as manufacturers want them but still will work.
Only split guide taking a seal was the C type that uses an O-ring same as later style so look how the groove on yours is machined.
Bored&Stroked
Well-known member
You should have everything cleaned really well, then use precision mics to measure the crank for wear and/or taper, the bores, the pistons, valve stems, etc. Same with the rods.
What I don't know if is you can find bearings for those rods - have never built a canadian flathead engine like that. As I stated in my previous post, you may need to switch over to late 49-53 rods and later bearings. If you end up needing new rods, buy the new ones from SoCal - will save you money in the end.
Once everything is cleaned, inspected and accurately measured, then you'll have a better idea on your options. You might be able to ball-hone the bores, polish the crank, throw in a set of later rods, put in new bearings, do a valve job, buy a gasket set and have a low-buck rebuild . . . time will tell.
Question: You mentioned you were going to "grind the valve seats" -- so you have the necessary equipment and knowledge? What are you pondering here?
Valve Clearances: Given your engine, when you redo the seats and the valves, the clearances will get tighter - so the valve stems are ground on a valve machine. Most valve grinding machines have two wheels - one for the valve angles/faces and one for butting the stems. With that said - I highly recommend you have an experienced flathead shop do the complete valve job. Most "Normal" shops will not have the seat pilot for a flathead and you should not use a valve guide for a pilot -- so this is a question I'd be asking as well. Valve jobs on flatheads are a bit time consuming - so expect to pay a bit more than on a set of OHV heads.
Here is a Kwik-Way One: (The Sioux one is double-ended - picks up the lifter bore as well).
Best of luck,
D
What I don't know if is you can find bearings for those rods - have never built a canadian flathead engine like that. As I stated in my previous post, you may need to switch over to late 49-53 rods and later bearings. If you end up needing new rods, buy the new ones from SoCal - will save you money in the end.
Once everything is cleaned, inspected and accurately measured, then you'll have a better idea on your options. You might be able to ball-hone the bores, polish the crank, throw in a set of later rods, put in new bearings, do a valve job, buy a gasket set and have a low-buck rebuild . . . time will tell.
Question: You mentioned you were going to "grind the valve seats" -- so you have the necessary equipment and knowledge? What are you pondering here?
Valve Clearances: Given your engine, when you redo the seats and the valves, the clearances will get tighter - so the valve stems are ground on a valve machine. Most valve grinding machines have two wheels - one for the valve angles/faces and one for butting the stems. With that said - I highly recommend you have an experienced flathead shop do the complete valve job. Most "Normal" shops will not have the seat pilot for a flathead and you should not use a valve guide for a pilot -- so this is a question I'd be asking as well. Valve jobs on flatheads are a bit time consuming - so expect to pay a bit more than on a set of OHV heads.
Here is a Kwik-Way One: (The Sioux one is double-ended - picks up the lifter bore as well).
Best of luck,
D