Stock Model A, always hard to start, now wont start

RudyOnWheels

RudyOnWheels

Member
Hello all, I am new to the world of Model A ownership, but have loved them since I was a kid. I just got my coupe about a month and a half ago. When I went to look at it, it started right up everytime for the owner. I appears to be a mostly original car. I printed off the starting instructions from the MARC website, but it never seems to want to start.... It eventually will, but it takes an excessively long time. The guy I got it from said he does not bother with trying to adjust the fuel mixture with the choke rod. IO have tried it both ways, and it doesnt seem to help. Going by the MARC website, this is what I do, and I have to crank, and crank and crank for a few miunutes before it eventually sputters to life.... Today we took it apart and put on a new exhaust manifold gasket and gland rings, and I put a gasket in between the top and bottom of the tillotson model X carb. Also one between the carb and manifold. When it runs, it runs well. It is just impossible to start.... This way doesnt work, so i try this, then that, then this, and can never figure out what really works. After re-assembling it, and trying to start the car, fuel kinda pours out of the carb where the filter would go...... What do you think the issue may be? bad points? condenser on its way out (or died today)? How do you go about starting your car?

Here is what I do, according to the MARC website, and it doesnt seem to work.....

STARTING THE ENGINE
1. RELEASE THE LOCK CYLINDER BY TURNING THE SWITCH KEY TO THE RIGHT AS DESCRIBED ON PAGE 6.

2. SEE THAT THE SPARK LEVER IS RETARDED; THE THROTTLE LEVER ADVANCED THREE OR FOUR NOTCHES ON THE QUADRANT AND THE GEAR SHIFT LEVER IN NEUTRAL POSITION.

3. IF THE ENGINE IS COLD, TURN THE CARBURETOR-ADJUSTING ROD ONE FULL TURN TO THE LEFT TO GIVE IT A RICHER MIXTURE FOR STARTING. THIS ROD SERVES BOTH AS A CHOKE FOR STARTING AND AS AN ENRICHING ADJUSTMENT.

4.NEXT PULL BACK THE ROD, AT THE SAME TIME PRESSING DOWN ON THE STARTER BUTTON WITH YOUR FOOT. THE INSTANT THE ENGINE STARTS, WITHDRAW YOUR FOOT FROM THE STARTER BUTTON AND RELEASE THE CHOKE ROD.

5. NEXT ADVANCE THE SPARK LEVER ABOUT HALF WAY DOWN THE QUADRANT.

6.WHEN THE ENGINE WARMS UP, TURN THE ADJUSTING ROD BACK TO THE RIGHT. NEVER DRIVE CONTINUOUSLY WITH ADJUSTING ROD MORE THAN 1/4 TURN OPEN. (SEE ADJUSTMENT OF CARBURETOR, PAGE 24.)

WHEN STARTING A WARM ENGINE, DO NOT PULL BACK THE CHOKE UNLESS THE ENGINE FAILS TO START ON THE NORMAL MIXTURE AS THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF FLOODING THE ENGINE WITH AN OVER RICH MIXTURE OF GAS. IF YOU SHOULD BY ACCIDENT FLOOD THE ENGINE, OPEN THE THROTTLE AND WITH THE CHOKE ROD IN NORMAL POSITION, TURN THE ENGINE OVER A FEW TIMES TO EXHAUST THE RICH GAS.


Thank you very much for your help.....

James
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Hi James,

If fuel is pouring our of the air inlet of the carb I'd say at the very least you have a bad float or needle valve, or the float level is out of adjustment so the fuel is overflowing the bowl. I'm not familiar with the Tillotson carb so I can't advise on how to get it apart.
 
Start with the easiest check first. Pull the coil wire out of the distributor and hold it 1/4" from a head nut. Have someone crank the engine while you look for a good blue 1/4" spark. Replace the condensor or clean and adjust the points or do what is needed to get the good blue spark while cranking.

Then pull the choke for about 2 compression strokes only. This should be enough to draw fuel into the cylinders and you may also see some gas drip out the carb air inlet. With fuel and good spark, it should fire right up.
 
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Also check the timing and dist over pretty well. Maro's timing method seems to work the best for me. Rod
 
If you can get a hold of the latest issue of the Restorer there is an article there by some old geezer that tells how to get it to start step by step.

If you do not have access to that magazine email me and I will email you a copy of those two pages.

Not guaranteed to start the car but it should get you well on the way.

My email if you cannot find it here on the Fordbarn site is turnkey@new.rr.com

Remember..it ran before...it will run again....

Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI
 
There is one thing REALLY bad in those instructions!

PULL BACK THE ROD, AT THE SAME TIME PRESSING DOWN ON THE STARTER BUTTON WITH YOUR FOOT. THE INSTANT THE ENGINE STARTS, WITHDRAW YOUR FOOT FROM THE STARTER BUTTON AND RELEASE THE CHOKE ROD.

The choke rod should NOT be held out indefinitely. If it doens't start very quicky it will flood the engine. The choke should be held out about two compression strokes on average and released.
 
James,

There are several things necessary for an engine to start and run.

You need fuel, compression, and spark.

The first thing I would do is fix the leaking carb. This is a dangerous situation. You said it is "leaking where the filter would go". Do you mean the gas line where it screws into the carb ? There should be a ferrule on the end of the gas line which is supposed to expand when the nut is snugged up (don't over tighten it ) use a new ferrule each time the line is removed.Be sure the float is not stuck in the open position.

Other things to check are clean ,tight, electrical connections everywhere. The junction box on the firewall is a good place to start. Take care where each wire goes but clean and tighten them all. Check & clean the points for corrosion/dirt and adjust the gap to 20 thousandths when the point breaker arm is at the high point of the distributor cam . Clean the terminals on the coil primary and secondary wires ( the two small ones and the large one that goes to the Distributor.) Clean the spark plug and re-gap them.

Check the fluid level in the battery. Clean both the battery terminals at both ends. The engine electrical system needs a good ground. When cranking the engine do not crank it for more than 8 seconds at a time and let it rest several minutes to cool off between tries or you could overheat the starter motor.

Lastly. run a compression check on the cylinders with spark plugs removed.

If all else fails contact a local Model A club and ask for help. You will be surprised at how many owners would be willing to help.
 
Sparky said:
If fuel is pouring our of the air inlet of the carb I'd say at the very least you have a bad float or needle valve, or the float level is out of adjustment so the fuel is overflowing the bowl. I'm not familiar with the Tillotson carb so I can't advise on how to get it apart.
Click to expand...

Actually they will all do that if the carb is choked too long or the engine doesn't start since it's an updraft. When the choke is pulled the engine draws a bunch of raw fuel. When the engine quits turning and drawing, all the fuel that hasn't made it over the top of the manifold flows back down, through the carb, and onto the floor.
 
My friend has a 29 Model A Sedan, he had a Tillotson carb on it, we rebuilt it, put in a new gross valve, everything that came in the kit. He still had trouble starting it. It would sputter, pop, run rough. He finally bought a Zenith from John's in Illinois, we put that on and it solved his problem. He can get it running right from the start. Did you ask the man that you bought it from how he managed to get it going. Good Luck
 
Rudy,
All these guys are giving you good advice and I'm not going to argue with them. What I would suggest you do is go to the Mafca web site, www.mafca.com . Under the chapter section it shows 2 chapters in Michigan and how to contact them. I would suggest you contact them and ask for help. Good luck and have fun.
Jon
 
I agree with Marco

RudyOnWheels said:
4.NEXT PULL BACK THE ROD, AT THE SAME TIME PRESSING DOWN ON THE STARTER BUTTON WITH YOUR FOOT. THE INSTANT THE ENGINE STARTS, WITHDRAW YOUR FOOT FROM THE STARTER BUTTON AND RELEASE THE CHOKE ROD.
Click to expand...

Step #4 might be read as you hold out the choke until the engine starts. That will cause what you are experiencing if the engine does not start right away. The choke should be released after 2 revolutions of the engine even if the engine has not yet started. You WILL flood the engine if you hold it out longer than that.

I had a hard time starting my engine when the engine was a little warm. If I went into a store and came out 15 mins latter the engine would be hard to start. If I did not choke it might not get enough gas to start. If I choked it normally (2 revolutions) it would flood. I found that I had to use the choke but I had to release it as soon as I heard the starter working. Now it starts every time with a slightly warmed up engine.

Bob
 
If there's gas running out of the carb, then the needle on your float is not shutting off the gas when the bowl is full. So it sounds like it's flooding out.
Take your carb off, drain the bowl, turn it upside down and blow in the gas inlet. if you can blow through it, then the needle is not shutting off. If you can't blow through it then the needle and seat are probably ok. Take it apart and check your float, it may have a hole in it causing it to sink. when you get it out, shake it to see if it has gas in it, if it does then that's your problem. If it's not too bad, then you may be able to solder it up. Also check your float adjustment, if it touches the top of the float bowl, then it won't let the needle shut off. If your float is ok, then go back to the needle and seat. I know there are people out there that won't agree with me on this one, but it does work, because I just did it on my coupe. If it has a steel needle,and it is not seating, take a small hammer and tap the needle gently as you turn it on the seat. when you're through doing that, take some tooth past, put it on the needle and turn it against the seat to lap it in. Make sure you clean everything out good befor you put it back together. Sorry this was so long winded. Good luck James and let me know what you find out. All the best to you and yours.

Stan/MO.
 
Everyone above gave great information, particularly Marco's about not holding out the choke too long.
You did not say how healthy your battery turns over the engine.
Do you have a good battery?
 
I also never really mess with turning the carb adjusting rod. It sounds like to me you are just flooding the motor. Try starting it with the carb adjusting rod at a 1/4 turn and only holding the choke out for only 1 to 2 seconds and if it doesn't start try starting again without pulling the choke. Good luck and try contacting a local model A club, you would be surprised how club members love to help other model A owners.
 
Get one of those gadgets that show polarity to the distributer from the coil for testing. If the wires are reversed on the coil it will reduce the power to the distributer. I've found these hooked up in reverse more than once and it makes it harder to start warmed up.
 
A Tilliston carb is a diffrent ballgame. Your instructions are for a Zenith. Open the gas knob (choke) about 3 turns. Pull the throttle down about a quater of the way. Turn on the key. Pull out the choke and step on the starter about 3 revelutions push in the choke and see what happens. Sometimes one might turn the gas valve only 2 turns sometimes more. Each Tilly has a mind of it's own. Give it a try. I never had one that did not start. Tony
 
Thank You everyone who has repiled. Yes, I took it as hold the choke indefinitely. I think we have most deinfitely been flooding the bejesus out of the poor thing. I will try the above in the AM. I also just joined MARC, and am a member of my local chapter. The members have been MORE than helpful, right up to GIVING me parts I need. Wow, what a great group of people. One of the members is coming over in the AM to go over everything with me. I was at his house today with the carb apart to install a base gasket (only) and he checked the float and it is prefect. When the car starts it runs excellent, it just seems to be a hard starter, but I think I can attribute that to bad information. The car always seemed to start for the previous owner almost instantly. I HAD a good battery (6 volt), but I think we may have killed it today.... It is charging overnight, an we will see if she lives in the AM! My friend from the club is going to go over all of the basics with me, and I am sure check and or change the points and condenser, etc..... I bet she fires right up when I try and start it the RIGHT way..... Thoes insructions should be revised on the MARC website.... The choking instructions seem to tell you to do it until it starts...

Thank You so Much,

James
 
james,
there is not much i can add as these guys pretty much went over the basic things to check.
your in good hands with your local club helping you out. you'll be up and running in no time
mitch
 
Seems like every one of these lovable little beasts has its own personality. One of my A's will start with no choke and no opening of the GAV. I just hit the starter and she goes. My other one requires a little choke and about a 1/4 turn of the GAV, and often floods very easily, especially when already warm.

You did a good thing by joining a Model A Club. There are always other A enthusiasts willing to help out a fellow Model A'er.
 
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