Starting Troubles

G

G_Don

Member
Hi All,

My Model A started and ran two months ago. I got around to try starting it a few days ago and it didnt start.

I thought it was a spark issue. It had the older style distributor upper and lower plates, which I replaced with a newer style seeing as the lower plates wire was getting frayed and set the points to 0.020".

I unscrewed the dash to make sure it wasn't shorting on the gas tank.

I checked the coil with a timing light, and it worked fine. I got juice to both sides when the switch was on and points were open. With the switch on and the points closed I only got juice to the negative side.

I put the number 1 spark plug copper wire about a 1/16" away from the distributor cyl 1 terminal and cranked it over and saw a spark. The spark plugs have carbon on them but are not fouled. I replaced the dash and repeated this to and still got spark from the number 1 cylinder to the dist.

The rotor does sit a little uneven and the distributor body doesn't seem to be the best. The rotor cap clearance isn't an even 0.025 as it goes around on each one. Some it is 0.025 but one of them is approximately 0.010". I'd hate to just throw parts at this issue to try and fix it, especially when it ran not long ago.

I cant think of any more tests for failure to get spark.

I figured it was a fuel issue. I removed the line from the sediment bulb and truned the gas valve and gas shot out of the bulb. I reconnected the line to the bulb and unscrewed it from the carb. The gas shot out of the line that was connected to the carb, so the line is clear. I don't really know what it could be unless the carb was rebuilt poorly (I recently acquired the car 3 months ago).

Anyone have any insight? I've looked at countless youtube videos and searched on here for an answer, but maybe I am missing something?

Any way, Thanks so much for your time in advance.
Gordy
 
It could be old gas. Bad Ethanol can cause these symptoms. Squirt some good gas (a small amount) or starter fluid in the throat of the carb and then see if it will fire. It might run for only a moment with just the squirt, but that will give you an idea if it’s fuel or electrical.

Your sediment bowl may also be clogged. Fuel can still flow past a bulb full of junk. Easy to open it up and check.

Personally I don’t trust newer plates, so I would suspect the problem could be there. I assume you cleaned the points and broke them to make sure you had spark there.
 
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Ditto on points.. if it ran before there can't be much wrong with it ....If you now suspect it may be a fuel issue ...take off bottom half of carb, empty any fuel in the bowl. Pour fresh fuel into the bowl, refit with fresh fuel in carb and see it fires with that. (PS do it outside!... you will spill fuel! ....or pour a few drrops of neat fuel into each spark plug hole and try it... or try easystart!]
 
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Last year I had a no start, after cranking 4-5 times fuel dripped out of the carburetor. So I went in the dizzy and cleaned the points, after all it was running a few months earlier. Put it back together and still no start? so with a bright light I was looking for issues and found the rotor sitting on the head :-( put the rotor back in and it started up! After it warmed up I went for a nice drive.
 
Big hammer said:
Last year I had a no start, after cranking 4-5 times fuel dripped out of the carburetor. So I went in the dizzy and cleaned the points, after all it was running a few months earlier. Put it back together and still no start? so with a bright light I was looking for issues and found the rotor sitting on the head :-( put the rotor back in and it started up! After it warmed up I went for a nice drive.
Click to expand...


Glad I'm not the only one who's done that!!
 
johnbuckley said:
Ditto on points.. if it ran before there can't be much wrong with it ....If you now suspect it may be a fuel issue ...take off bottom half of carb, empty any fuel in the bowl. Pour fresh fuel into the bowl, refit with fresh fuel in carb and see it fires with that. (PS do it outside!... you will spill fuel! ....or pour a few drrops of neat fuel into each spark plug hole and try it... or try easystart!]
Click to expand...

I agree with squirting some fuel into the carburetor also you might try squirting some starter fluid into the carburetor. If that doesn’t work I would try a different distributor of known working order.
 
Wick said:
Float is probley stuck. Give carb a little tap. Choke it good. Should start.
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We've probably all used this "fix" at one time or another. Here's an odd twist to it. I've had it happen three times in the last three weeks.


My car usually starts right up with no hesitation on the first or second revolution. The three times I'm talking about each happened the morning after driving it around for a fair amount of time the day before. I drive it almost daily. (I'm in Florida)


When I went to start it my usual way I got a quick response like it was going to start like it always does. Then nothing. Crank with choke on, crank with choke off. On mine it will flood very quickly if you over choke it. So I suspected the ignition like anyone else would, but it had great spark.


It wasn't getting gas but the fuel bowl was full (yes, the tank valve was open). I tapped on the carb bowl by the inlet with no effect.So I loosened the fuel line at the carb inlet. At first nothing came out, then it suddenly had a good flow. Hooked the line back up and presto....normal start on first revolution.


On each of the times it has done that to me I have noticed that the fuel level was 1/4 tank or less. I'm thinking that with so little fuel in the tank there isn't sufficient head pressure to unseat the needle valve, especially if it tends to be a sticky one.


Each time this has happened it was fine after I filled the tank.


Does this make any sense?
 
TJMack,

I put 5 gallons in and it reads a quarter tank (slightly below) on the gauge now, but I believe my gauge isnt working properly. How many gallons does a 28 Phaeton hold as Im thinking of getting more Gas to remedy this issue.

I got it running today, but it starts out sounding really fast (high RPM) and my carb Idle RPM adjust screw is actually pretty far in (slower RPM from what I read).

I redid the timing thinking maybe that was it. It started and ran better but it was not idling well (I had to constantly mess with the GAV and gas pedal) in order for it to not die out on me, but once I got it going I was able to let it run for approximately 10 mins without any input. When I went to start it again a few hours later it wasnt so easy to get going and I noticed an oil leak from the rear of the oil pan.

I'm thinking of getting a new pan gasket, and trying to mess with the timing and also the carb idle RPM adjust screw.

Any insight as to what could be causing this issue? It just sounds like its running a little rough for my liking, but it also tends to die out unless I really give it a lot of my attention moving the GAV, giving it gas, playing with throttle and spark levers. Maybe thats just As as I'm pretty new to this hobby.

Thanks again everyone for the help!
Gordy
 
Your tank should hold 10 gallons. 5 gals should show 1/2 full. Your float may not be floating properly. I would not fill the tank until I was certain I would not need to drain it in the near future, like for working on the gauge.

Timing will not affect the idle speed. It might affect how smoothly the engine starts and runs, but that should not be your focus till you get your fuel situation sorted out. Idle speed is controlled by a screw on the arm of the throttle shaft that is activated with the accelerator pedal or hand throttle. The brass headed screw on top of the carb adjusts the air mixture, not the idle speed, though it can affect the idle. 1-1/2 open turns is a good starting point.


An oil leak at the tear of the engine is most often a bad rear main or a leak around the fkywheel housing where the camshaft is located. It is very rarely a pan gasket problem.

If you don’t have a copy of Les Andrews’s Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook Vol 1, you should get one. I’ve worked on and played with these cars for over 60 years, and I still refer to that book from time to time. A copybof the Service Bulletins is also good reading.
Also, join a local club if you have one. Lot’s of help available there.

And while I respect Wick’s experience and knowledge, whacking the side of the carb may temporarily solve the problem, but it does not address the cause. It’s like putting air in a flat tire without repairing the leak in the tube.
 
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I got it running today, but it starts out sounding really fast (high RPM) and my carb Idle RPM adjust screw is actually pretty far in (slower RPM from what I read).
Click to expand...

Back the screw out for a slower idle.
 
G_Don said:
TJMack,

I put 5 gallons in and it reads a quarter tank (slightly below) on the gauge now, but I believe my gauge isnt working properly. How many gallons does a 28 Phaeton hold as Im thinking of getting more Gas to remedy this issue.

I got it running today, but it starts out sounding really fast (high RPM) and my carb Idle RPM adjust screw is actually pretty far in (slower RPM from what I read).

I redid the timing thinking maybe that was it. It started and ran better but it was not idling well (I had to constantly mess with the GAV and gas pedal) in order for it to not die out on me, but once I got it going I was able to let it run for approximately 10 mins without any input. When I went to start it again a few hours later it wasnt so easy to get going and I noticed an oil leak from the rear of the oil pan.

I'm thinking of getting a new pan gasket, and trying to mess with the timing and also the carb idle RPM adjust screw.

Any insight as to what could be causing this issue? It just sounds like its running a little rough for my liking, but it also tends to die out unless I really give it a lot of my attention moving the GAV, giving it gas, playing with throttle and spark levers. Maybe thats just As as I'm pretty new to this hobby.

Thanks again everyone for the help!

Gordy
Click to expand...

Nice that you got it running. Your first post stated that you had a 1/16" spark. I would verify that you have a 1/4" to 3/8" white/blue spark when cranking the engine. If not, I suspect you may have an intermittent bad coil, condenser or something else. If these things check out, then carb may have been the problem. I had a similar problem this summer. Car was running great, then started missing and quit. Unable to restart. Turned out weak reddish spark when cranking that was probably due to poor battery ground. Also the coil started failing after warm up. With all those issues adding up at the same time, car was impossible to start. Resist the temptation to start wholesale changing out parts. I'm offering this experience in hopes of helping others as well.
 
Good Morning...If you have one of those old fuse holders on the starter...check it carefully. The old ones can come loose at the rivets and create trouble that presents like an air leak at the intake or exhaust manifold. If you can move the parts, then you might need to tighten the rivet or replace the fuse holder with a new one of higher quality...I have had the problem...and I said many bad words before I found the problem! Ernie in Arizona
 
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