Starting Tom's Car Debate

C

CleaningTheGarage

Junior Member
I'm starting this thread as an extension of this one. Best you read it first.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359393

Brent,

You hit on several topics, so I'll try to identify them as I see them. If misinterpreted your meaning, please correct me.

1) Owners need to honestly assess their mechanical skill level and advice givers often fail to consider the owner's experience and skill level.

2) There are far fewer people with the full skill set to repair these cars and it isn't always as simple as "check the ..."

3) Seeking professional help is a valid solution and shouldn't be seen negatively.

To start, I agree with you overall with a few caveats. It's the owners responsibility to provide as much information / context as possible, and filter through the noise of unhelpful posts. Those suggestions that may not be applicable in this situation, might be in another and if not put forth, wouldn't be available.

The reduced number of skilled people works against seeking professional help, and for trying it yourself. Like Tom, I live in a rural area and even helpful "shade tree" guys are at least an hour away. The nearest "pro" is at least two hours away. That doesn't factor in your work load. How soon could you work me in?

As I see it, this skill deficit is one of the major challenges facing the hobby. Skill is not just knowledge. Its knowledge combined with experience. I have far more resources available to me than did those learning in prior decades, but do agree that too much information, can be discouraging.

Self-censoring of what we post here to be applicable needs to be balanced against making knowledge available for future use. Corner cases do occur and knowing about those can be useful, if only 5% of the time. Your advice in particular has been very helpful to me on a number of occasions. Please don't dumb it down.
 
I rarely see it mentioned here, but there is a book for this! The Les Andrews "blue book," Model A Ford Troubleshooting and Diagnostics. You can buy it from MAFCA for $30. I swear it would be crickets on FordBarn if everyone had (and used) a copy of this book.
 
Forum participant "nkaminar" offered to drive to Tom's location and use his experience to help.
 
alexiskai said:
I rarely see it mentioned here, but there is a book for this! The Les Andrews "blue book," Model A Ford Troubleshooting and Diagnostics. You can buy it from MAFCA for $30. I swear it would be crickets on FordBarn if everyone had (and used) a copy of this book.
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This forum needs a like button.......
 

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P.S. said:
Forum participant "nkaminar" offered to drive to Tom's location and use his experience to help.
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Neil's generosity could be a huge help to Tom. One potential issue is Neil lives about 3 hours away from Tom, -and the struggle is real if the issue is something that Tom nor Neil have the replacement parts to make the necessary repairs. At that point, what is the next move??



alexiskai said:
I rarely see it mentioned here, but there is a book for this! The Les Andrews "blue book," Model A Ford Troubleshooting and Diagnostics. You can buy it from MAFCA for $30. I swear it would be crickets on FordBarn if everyone had (and used) a copy of this book.
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Colin, I'll take you up on that wager.

The issue with that mindset is generally severalfold. In my line of work, I receive 'volumes' of phone calls or emails from people asking for advice. I can generally tell within the first 30 seconds of the conversation what the outcome will be. No matter what that outcome will be, I at least try to help them. When I ask them, many do have these Books however they are still stumped and need assistance.

With the above said, here is my take on the above. A large portion of these Hobbyists who are having issues purchased their Model-A in an 'already restored' condition. Therein lies problem #1 since they have no familiarity with their vehicle and they have a false idea what 'restored' actually means. These Hobbyists are smart enough to know that they have no business (-skillset, tooling, or stamina) taking-on a full restoration HOWEVER they read the same common comment about 'How a Model-A is a simple car and easy to work on.' so they decide to purchase an affordable old car. Think about how many times we hear that. Then, ...they buy a Model-A that has a few issues where the Seller says phrases like "It may need <-insert whatever word here> but that is an easy fix!" ...and so these new Hobbyists buy the best Model-A they can find & afford. So the new Hobbyist is over their head immediately because as we have discussed here many times before, most Seller's and Buyer's definition of completely restored are not even in the same zip code with regard to meaning. Most Model-As on the market today need major work that the average Hobbyist (-who is unskilled, unversed, nor do they have the capabilities) cannot do. Am I being cruel? Maybe, but I am also being honest.

Something else has changed in this Hobby from what I remember it from 50 years ago compared to Today. Most Club members back in the 1960s, '70s, et/al were always trying to better their Model-A. Using my Dad as an example, he 'restored' with the best parts that he had, -or could find, or could afford for the moment however at each swap meet, he would buy a better item and swap it out in an effort to improve his Model-A. Others in the club did the same. Today, the mindset is for many Hobbyist is drive them until it isn't prudent to drive any longer however they keep driving it with the mindset of 'I'll be careful, and won't travel too far or fast.' Secondly on that topic, when we came home from a show or club function, we always washed and cleaned the car before it was put away. Any mechanical issue was corrected immediately before the car went on another club function. Hobbyists are not near the quality of caretakers today as what they were some 50+/- years ago. Maybe that is because of the disposable mindset that some Hobbyist have towards a Model-A. Maybe it is because some 'restored' Model-As need to be disposed of if their owner is not going to repair them correctly?? :o

So full circle is, just because someone owns two or three of Les' Books does not necessarily make them a good Troubleshooter nor a Repairer.


ModelA29 said:
That is the ethos of Model A ownership.
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When I was a young lad, your are 110% correct. Quite honestly, it is very, very rare for this as a whole in today's hobby.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Originally Posted by ModelA29
That is the ethos of Model A ownership.


When I was a young lad, your are 110% correct. Quite honestly, it is very, very rare for this as a whole in today's hobby.
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That has been my exposure to the A hobby here in SoCal. But I'm surrounded by the Pomona, Santa Anita and Orange County chapters. All have active mechanically knowledgeable members ready to help at the first sputter.
 
ModelA29 said:
That has been my exposure to the A hobby here in SoCal. But I'm surrounded by the Pomona, Santa Anita and Orange County chapters. All have active mechanically knowledgeable members ready to help at the first sputter.
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I understand you and I think you should consider yourself very fortunate ...however I hear it from so many when I ask if there is someone in a local club that could mentor them. One guy who called shared with me that some guys from his local club came to help him with a similar issue. Evidently they ate his donuts and drank the coffee he provided, and then at 11:30 they took a break for lunch. None of them showed back up after they finished having lunch. The Model-A didn't get fixed. He said he was selling it as-is.
 
For what my two cents is worth...I am one who wants to know how to fix something and know enough to know if someone is giving me a B.S. story...whether around the house or the car. I am not putting a roof on my house but I know a lot of real good contractors and when the time comes I will get a good roof for a fair price from a reputable contractor. Conversely, if my kitchen faucet goes south, my toilet is running, my dishwasher needs to be replaced...honey I will do it on Saturday.

Same situation with my cars. I have a simple one car garage under my house and one more detached at the end of my driveway. Both basically measure around 12 x 24. Neither of these is conducive to pulling the rear of a Model A. I do brake jobs, tune ups, oil changes and keep the cars running. I want to know what is happening when something does happen and I want to know who I can go to to get the best repair...that person isn't always me.

In the other post referenced before this one started Brent said something to the effect that Ford built cars and established service centers to repair those cars...I would agree with that sentiment.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Colin, I'll take you up on that wager.

The issue with that mindset is generally severalfold. In my line of work, I receive 'volumes' of phone calls or emails from people asking for advice. I can generally tell within the first 30 seconds of the conversation what the outcome will be. No matter what that outcome will be, I at least try to help them. When I ask them, many do have these Books however they are still stumped and need assistance.
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What I meant was that 80% of the talk on this forum is "I have problem X," "Try solutions A, B, and C." That is literally the entire content of the blue book. I don't ask that people be experts in all the diagnostic procedures, but we would waste a lot less time if people consulted the blue book first and then came here to say "I have problem X, the blue book suggests solution A, but I'm not sure how to do A, can someone give me the steps?"
 
I should have posted again sooner, but I've been out doing minor, easy things to my car. I just popped in to check the Barn here on how to pour new bearings.:D

Jg61Hawk, well put.

I understand Brent's perspective because he deals with the worst cases on a daily basis: people who don't know their limits, expect everything to be simple and inexpensive, and assume his time has no value. Being the person who has to introduce them to reality on a regular basis can't be easy.

Another thing that has changed over the last 50 years is parts availability. There were once far more cars, parts were relatively inexpensive, and many components were still being reproduced, even if the quality was sometimes questionable. People were also more likely to restore a vehicle than scrap it.

Today, there are fewer cars, fewer original parts, fewer manufacturers producing replacements, and much higher relative costs. Misapplied advice can damage or destroy parts and assemblies that are increasingly difficult, and sometimes impossible, to replace. Combined with what Brent calls our "throwaway society," that has led to more owners viewing these cars as disposable toys. They aren't.

These are historically significant antique machines that deserve to be preserved by us, their current caretakers, so they can still be enjoyed and appreciated a hundred years from now. The fact that they're a heck of a lot of fun to drive and work on is an added bonus.

That brings me back to the advice issue. Those of you on the Barn with decades of experience possess a tremendous amount of knowledge, and your willingness to share it is not only appreciated, it's essential to the survival of the hobby. I think the ask is that you be a little more forthcoming about the skill level, tools, or experience required for a particular job.

I recently followed the advice of a highly respected member who said, "Before doing X, try Y. It will take about 30 minutes and could save you a lot of time and money." Three hours later, I was installing the last cotter pin. Was I disappointed that it took so long? Not at all. I knew I could do the work, and I always apply my "next times two" rule to estimates: round up to the next unit of time and double it. In this case, I only missed by an hour instead of two and a half. 🙂

Ultimately, those of us with less experience have to take responsibility for our own decisions and be realistic about our capabilities. Just because I can do something doesn't always mean I should.
 
Not all owners can be expected to be mechanics. When the Model A was new most owners were not mechanics and took their cars to the dealers to have them serviced or fixed. Now Model A mechanics are few and far between. The books by Les Andrews, and other books, help but not for people without mechanical skill. I don't see any solution except a new flock of younger Model A mechanics. Plus, owners will have to realize that a mechanic's time is valuable and will have to be willing to pay them accordingly.
 
When I give advice on what to look for on fixing the model A, I try to explain it as simple as possible.
The A is continuous maintenance, grease,points,brake adjustments etc. If you leave the car original and have good parts the car will last a long time.
I have worked on probably 100 different model As and each one has had it's own challenges.
Little things like a egg shape ball on the spark rod connection...that was a tough one to solve. The broken distributor base, or the bent timing pin. This stuff is not in the books. The subject of lights not working, that's usually a ground. We also can create our own problems like painting the starter and flywheel housing, you loose your ground and the starter won't work. Check the gas pedal for wot is the carburetor wide open? Now I'm looking forward to hear what fixes Tom's car.
 
I should have posted again sooner, but I've been out doing minor, easy things to my car. I just popped in to check the Barn here on how to pour new bearings.BEST LINE !!!

I just returned from using a U-Haul trailer to take my transmission problems to Schwalms in Strasburg, PA.
 
he was selling it as-is.


Brent that is too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!


moral of the story- do cops work better with or wo donuts? your opinion.............
 
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