solenoid with start button

[V8COOPMAN]

From my earlier thread; RE the Echlin ST-58 NAPA gave me that would not work on my '49 Ford positive ground PU which as I know, requires the ST-53. If solenoids are not polarity sensitive, then the New Asian made Eichlin solenoid ST-58 must of been just faulty. Only difference I could tell was the ST-58 had a bakealite case and the 53 a metal case from Mexico. An interesting thread in any event. Don

If you still believe that solenoids are polarity-sensitive, then can you PLEASE explain why old Ford solenoids still work when guys change their old Fords over to 12v, NEG Ground? DD

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[Bob C]

The ST-53 has an insulated base and the ST-58 has a grounded base.
The ST-58 is for the later Fords with the key start.

 

[tubman]

The older solenoids that work by grounding the circuit to start may seem to be "polarity-sensitive", but they're really not. They must be hooked up so the activation terminal is "hot". The cable from the battery and the cable to the starter must be hooked up to the proper terminals or they won't work. Also, there are some solenoids that have different size terminals for the battery and starter, but tha' s just a convention, and has nothing to do with polarity either.

 

[v8fordman]

I have all of the tools to rebuild those old starter solenoids. Back in the 80's and 90's when restorations of our old Fords were at their peak, finding the correct one...especially one that worked necessitated a rebuild. In my notes, I can tell you how many revolutions of wire are necessary and which direction the coils were wound in. I could (still can, but don't do it anymore) convert 12v ones to 6v and vice-versa. I would dis-assemble them, have the cases cadmium plated (which is hard to do now), reassemble with new insulators and press the bottom cap back on. If you want to really get technical, original Ford solenoids (when they first appeared in 1937) had their mounting straps with either Ford script or RBM stamped on them. The rivet holding the plunger stop in the upper case was also different. For those who argue 6v versus 12v...6v wiring is heavier than 12v so a 6v solenoid can handle 12volts but not the other way around. My observation back then was that the solenoid is just a small electromagnet. I assure you that the wires from the coil are insulated at the small terminal on the front and the battery terminal on the side. The small terminal grounds when the starter button is pressed, completing a circuit which in turn creates a magnetic field (remember the science project where you wrapped a wire around a nail and hooked it to a battery). A brass disc is connected to a spring loaded plunger which moves upward (right hand rule of physics) causing a connection between the two brass terminals on the solenoid...the battery terminal (which is "hot" all the time) and the starter terminal which gets "hot" and engages the starter when the disc connects the two sides internally in the solenoid. The spring "disconnects the disc from the terminals when the ground circuit (magnetic) is broken. The solenoid's operation is just a basic principle of electricity and magnetism. They do fail occasionally because corrosion on the disc can create a bad connection, causing heat and cavitation on the brass disc or the wire may burn.

To repair one, all you need to do is take it apart, flip the disc over, rotate the brass terminals and you have a basically new solenoid. Getting the can apart and the bottom back together is the secret though.

 

[cas3]

Very interesting, thanks

 

[v8fordman]

Anyone know what brand, or where to get a ford starter solenoid with the button on the bottom for bumping the eng over?

Thanks,

jim

Do you still need one? Email me at v8fordman@hotmail.com

 

[Tinker]

Do you still need one? Email me at v8fordman@hotmail.com

Good on you for being a guy that can rebuild them. More and more over time we will have to rely on these services.


Not you v8fordman, The earlier claim of polarized solenoids is interesting. It's a simple coil device that only cares about how it's wired, it has no internal power or creates power. It response to positive and negative forces only.

 

[V8COOPMAN]

It's a simple coil device that only cares about how it's wired, it has no internal power or creates power. It response to positive and negative forces only.

Well, not really! It responds to introducing ANY pathway to GROUND for the coil, whether POS or NEG. DD

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[Tinker]

Well, not really! It responds to introducing ANY pathway to GROUND for the coil, whether POS or NEG. DD

.

hahahaha... depending on how it's wired! It's not polarized to a certain current flow.


It's funny how you disagree with me while agreeing. hahaha

 

[Merc Cruzer]

The car is a stock 1953 Mercury with a 6 volt , positive ground system.

Okay, why doesn't it work?! I too wanted to have the starter solenoid with the button.

I have now bought two (thinking that the original one was faulty, and you all know, if you buy an electrical part, it is not returnable. The first one I bought from NAPA (ST53), the second one I bought from O'Reilly's (SS558). When I called Standard, I was assured both would work. My understanding is that these should swap out directly.

I have attached pictures of the original factory Ford solenoid, installed (with one screw, the reason it is at an angle) and working, in the car. I have placed one of the new ones below it. I installed the new solenoids, with the same wire configuration, as on the factory solenoid above it. When you get in the car, put the shiftier in neutral, turn on the ignition switch and hit the starter button, you get absolutely nothing but silence.

The factory solenoid is currently in the car and works perfectly.

What am I doing wrong?

Thank you in advance, for your input.

 

[V8COOPMAN]

The car is a stock 1953 Mercury with a 6 volt , positive ground system.

Okay, why doesn't it work?! I too wanted to have the starter solenoid with the button.

I have now bought two (thinking that the original one was faulty, and you all know, if you buy an electrical part, it is not returnable. The first one I bought from NAPA (ST53), the second one I bought from O'Reilly's (SS558). When I called Standard, I was assured both would work. My understanding is that these should swap out directly.

I have attached pictures of the original factory Ford solenoid, installed (with one screw, the reason it is at an angle) and working, in the car. I have placed one of the new ones below it. I installed the new solenoids, with the same wire configuration, as on the factory solenoid above it. When you get in the car, put the shiftier in neutral, turn on the ignition switch and hit the starter button, you get absolutely nothing but silence.

The factory solenoid is currently in the car and works perfectly.

What am I doing wrong?

Thank you in advance, for your input.

A couple of things first....Are you sure that your BATTERY cable and the other small POWER wires are connected to the proper of the two LARGE lugs? Note how the BAT terminal is marked on the side of this old solenoid.

If NOT hooked to the proper lug, the START mode will not operate. If not marked on the solenoid, you can check which is the BAT terminal with an ohm meter. Look at the diagram below. As can be seen in drawing, the BAT terminal will be common with (connected) the SMALL terminal going to the STARTER Button.

With your DVM set to OHMS, place your two leads across the small pole in center and on one of the LARGE posts. Whichever LARGE post shows continuity with the SMALL post, that LARGE post goes to BATTERY. DD


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[Merc Cruzer]

Thanks for asking: "Are you sure that your BATTERY cable and the other small POWER wires are connected to the proper of the two LARGE lugs? Note how the BAT terminal is marked on the side of this old solenoid."Yes, when I hooked them up, the battery cable, is hooked to the terminal marked "BAT".

I normally use a jumper cable, to bump the engine over.

Good suggestion: The multi-meter test you recommend, confirmed continuity, with the post marked "BAT" and the small center post, is the one correct one.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

One thing I have noticed, is that the factory/Ford solenoid, has continuity between the small post and the frame/mounting bracket, of the solenoid, where as the new ones do not.

 

[cas3]

Thats odd, if its grounded, it would trigger the starter instead of you grounding it with the button

 

[tubman]

It sounds to me like someone changed your car to use the other type of solenoid (non-grounding) before you got it.

 

[marko39]

if applying power instead of ground to the small terminal makes it work it is the wrong solenoid. this happened to me.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

Sorry but this will be a long one, but I will attempt to document the answers to the prior questions with pictures. I find they explain the findings better than words.

I am posting pictures (#1-3) of the book part number (FAB 11450-B) for the solenoid, the part number stamped on the solenoid (showing it is the correct part for the car). Other pictures show the multimeter continuity readings when the solenoid is in the car and the test:

1. (last picture) is between the small terminal and the mounting screw
2. (picture #7) small terminal and the left post (going to the battery). By the way the
case is not marked battery on either side/post, no continuity.
3. (picture # 6) small terminal and the right post (to the starter),no continuity.
4. (picture #4 ) small post and continuity to the mounting bracket
5. (picture #5) showing the multimeter is working correctly.

I am open for suggestions, for any other readings, tests or pictures, any of you may have, to explain the situation. Another point, is on the new ones, the small post is isolated from the mounting bracket. One final point, when I had one of the new ones mounted and wired in the car, the jumper wire I normally use to bump the motor over, hooked between the small post and the battery post did not work. When I pushed on the button, on the solenoid, it turned the motor over, but stuck on, so I had to disconnect the battery cable, to disconnect it.

This solenoid, works perfectly in the car.

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[Jack E/NJ]

tubman>>>It sounds to me like someone changed your car to use the other type of solenoid (non-grounding) before you got it.>>>


Agreed. Prolly 2 wires on the back of the starter button. One hot and one to the small solenoid terminal.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

I just contacted Standard Brand, help desk (718) 392-0200 and they informed me that the solenoid needs to be a non insulated base. Their part number is SS571. They do not make one, with an external button, for my car. So, it is back to the jumper cable, that I got from my Dad, which makes it well over 80 years old.

It has been interesting.

https://www.standardbrand.com/en/ecatalog?year=1953

 

[Jack E/NJ]

No jumper needed. Just connect a small momentary push button switch between the solenoid's hot terminal & its small terminal. That's all I do with a grounded base solenoid.