Serial number size

One sort of gets into a quandary when it comes to matching engine numbers. So you have a car with the original engine in it and you throw a rod through the side of the block damaging it beyond repair.
Oh well I no longer have a matching engine number so I should just junk the car and get another car that does??
Better in my opinion to rebuild a replacement engine and stamp the numbers to match the old identification numbers. There is essentially nothing different between engines other than the identification numbers.
The intent of re-stamping is not to commit fraud but to maintain the proper documentation of a vehicle.
A technicality but these aren't actually VIN's but are serial or identification numbers. I'm probably off on this but I understand the term VIN was not officially recognized by the government until somewhere around 1981.
 
Charlie Stephens said:
That is sort of what I was trying to say in Post #6. I like your phrasing better.

GOOGLE "is it illegal to tamper with a VIN". It is sort of like playing the lottery except if you win you lose. I don't play the lottery.

Charlie Stephens
Click to expand...

There is not a good answer here for 90 year old cars.

Prior to 1954 there was not a true standard for VIN’s on U.S. manufactured vehicles. The frame number was the norm. You can go on from there depending on the manufacture.

The problem we have today is 100 years of restorations, barn finds, J.C.Witney or Sears engine swaps, one car made from three, etc.

I would argue the frame number on a Model A is the real true VIN number. Now you have to show that number to you local DMV agent or insurance adjuster.

If your paperwork does not conform to the only readily available readable number. Than you have a problem. “Body off frame”?

How many Model T’s and/or Model A’s have had different engines installed in them that have had there P/N modified to match the frame number which back in the day was considered the VIN.

If you have seen the frame VIN number or can trace ownership back with paperwork that shows consist VIN. Do we all really think marking another part of the car with the correct VIN is a major problem.

If so, we all better be ready to remove our car bodies to confirm ownership.

That’s my soap box for today.
 
WHN said:
There is not a good answer here for 90 year old cars.



Prior to 1954 there was not a true standard for VIN’s on U.S. manufactured vehicles. The frame number was the norm. You can go on from there depending on the manufacture.



The problem we have today is 100 years of restorations, barn finds, J.C.Witney or Sears engine swaps, one car made from three, etc.



I would argue the frame number on a Model A is the real true VIN number. Now you have to show that number to you local DMV agent or insurance adjuster.



If your paperwork does not conform to the only readily available readable number. Than you have a problem. “Body off frame”?



How many Model T’s and/or Model A’s have had different engines installed in them that have had there P/N modified to match the frame number which back in the day was considered the VIN.



If you have seen the frame VIN number or can trace ownership back with paperwork that shows consist VIN. Do we all really think marking another part of the car with the correct VIN is a major problem.



If so, we all better be ready to remove our car bodies to confirm ownership.



That’s my soap box for today.
Click to expand...



This.

The bureaucracy of 2018 could not have been predicted in 1931. “Standardization” — in as much as it existed at the time — has changed.

I guess I didn’t realize that every Model A on the road has the original engine with perfectly legible stampings, and I’m alone in this quandary, a great pioneer of this very issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Chris Haynes said:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=10751.
Click to expand...

I really don’t know why anyone would post something like this but to make other people feel that they had done something terribly wrong.

I will just say again. If you own a Model A Ford, take your car body off the frame and confirm the VIN number. That is the ONLY way you will know for sure. Leave it off, because anyone might also want to know the true VIN.

Our maybe check the pre 1954 federal regulations on vehicle identification.

Merry Christmas to everyone.
 
WHN said:
I really don’t know why anyone would post something like this but to make other people feel that they had done something terribly wrong.

I will just say again. If you own a Model A Ford, take your car body off the frame and confirm the VIN number. That is the ONLY way you will know for sure. Leave it off, because anyone might also want to know the true VIN.

Our maybe check the pre 1954 federal regulations on vehicle identification.

Merry Christmas to everyone.
Click to expand...
Someone would post something like this to warn people of the possible problems that could occur when they do something they consider to be innocent. I like to know the potential consequences before I do something so I can consider whether or not I should do it. Thank you Chris Hayes for posting.

In California they do not currently go by the number on the frame. Once you have established you own the vehicle they will attach a number plate to the for that will be used to identify the vehicle in the future (see attached photo of he identification plate on my door jam rotated ninety degrees).

Charlie Stephens
 

Attachments

  • IMG_5943.jpg
    IMG_5943.jpg
    54.8 KB · Views: 81
Last edited:
The manufacturer’s manual states that the engine number is the serial number. The engine number is not legible, therefore the vehicle in effect has no serial number.

There’s the possibility that it also has a frame number, and there’s an even stronger possibility that it’s also not legible.

Laws don’t fit every situation. I’ve been comfortable with that assessment for a very long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
What do you do in that crazy state if you lift the frame and find the # either has been ground off or rusted to bad to read ?? You also have a engine that has #s that dont match your Rhode Island title.
 
F.M. said:
What do you do in that crazy state if you lift the frame and find the # either has been ground off or rusted to bad to read ?? You also have a engine that has #s that dont match your Rhode Island title.
Click to expand...

Then the state will investigate it, by sending it to the CHP for inspection. After that, if the CHP determines that it isn't stolen, they will assign a number that would be put on the door jamb. If it is stolen you lose it.
 
Prior to 1954 there were no Vehicle Identification Numbers on cars regulated by the U. S. Government.

What we had was an unregulated system of manufactures putting what they sometimes called part numbers on many different places in there cars.

The number placed on the frame was up until 1954 the most excepted real car number for most manufactures. They did not have to be easily seen as is the case today.

The engine number on a Model A Ford is the production number for engines at that time. It was used as the cars part number when installed in car being marked on frame. We all know this.

Engines get changed, on 90 year old cars, maybe many times. Frames ideally do not get changed. Using today’s terminology, your frame number is what today would be called a VIN.

90 years ago the number on the Model A engine was considered a part number.

Since that time many changes have taken place with VIN’s, including standardization after 1955. Other upgrades and improvements have been made since than, in 1980’s and 1990’s.

Different states have also added there own requirements. Some states have titles, some do not on cars the age of ours.

If you have no paperwork, your in trouble no matter what state you are in. If you have supporting documentation, in most states that should be all that is needed. Most just want to verify that your numbers match. California is one of the most difficult states for registering cars.

The VIN requirements that manufactures have to meet today have no relation to pre 1954 cars. Changing engines and part numbers 90 years ago was not a big thing. Engine rebuilders did it. Changing frame numbers would have been different.

I think we are making more of this than we should. In most states, if the number on the engine matches the number on the paperwork, your home free.

I’m done, I promise. Happy Holidays,

Bill
 
I live in a state that does not issue VIN plates like the one shown above.

I live in a state that does, however, require a “VIN inspection” wherein the number on the existing title must match the number on the car. If not, all the paperwork has to be verified and a salvage title will be issued. This car is a survivor, a family heirloom and nearly all-original — I’m not marring it with a “salvage” title because of laws that don’t allow for the existence of a car this old.

The title is legitimate, the signatures are legitimate, the bill of sale is legitimate, the purchase was legitimate. You just can’t read the damn numbers.

I’ve found a solution to that problem. End of story.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
All I can add to this thread is that folks looking for serial number stamps that match Ford characters need to ask only about stamps and where to purchase them. DO NOT mention what you intend to do with those stamps. KR Wilson used to make them for "Ford Dealers" back in the day but there was always a way for the public to get them as well.


Different states use different publications to ID antique serial numbers and some specifically mention frame numbers. Texas requires at minimum, a pencil rubbing of the number on the frame. This is a problem for some GM owners since the engine number was the only number on the vehicle for many an old chevy.
 
Last edited:
Putting the correct number on the legitimate engine in your legitimate car is not "altering the manufacturer's serial number" in any way.

California's laws are different. Stay out of that state. Don't listen to anybody from that state. Don't let your daughter marry anybody from that state. Anything you eat or use in that state probably has a warning that you will get cancer.

Of course I may be biased, being from Minnesota where everybody is above average.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top