seat inserts ...purpose/time Q

hardtimes

hardtimes

Well-known member
Seller tells me that my new 8CM has 'hardened' seats('49 blk), but he says that ford/merc quit putting those seats in subsequent year blocks. Is this true? And, why do it and stop(durability/ cost?)?
 
Fuels were improving at that time and they had lead in the fuel to control detonation; it also worked to prevent what we now refer to as " valve seat recession". This allowed cost saving to the manufacturer in not adding hardened seats.
 
thunderbirdesq said:
I've got a 51 block with them in it...
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thunderbirdesq,
Hmm, wonder if your '51 block with the seats was the factory norm or add on?
For instance, I have a B block banger that I've had hard seats put into the block! That is, I put them in prior to listening to engine pros tell how the 'hardened seats' are a pigment of imagination..." not necessary at all"...go figure! Rick
 
51 would still have had hard seats, especially in the exhaust. 51 would have a 1CM designation, not 8CM.
 
The change was both chronological and related to use, apparently. I think earlier new series engines all got seats, then some dropped to exhaust only and late passenger car engines got none. Trucks got 16 til the end. I believe Model A's and B's manufactured after some time in the mid-thirties (they were produced for industrial use, diamond blocks) got hard seats, probably at the same time production V8's got them.
All the early flatheads after 193? got 16...I don't have any from that mid-thirties period and I'm not sure when they became standard.
There was a general dropping of expensive Ford features as cost cutting after 1947, as the new accountant-dominated structure took over from the engineers.
Some 59 engines were made for a few years after 1948, I believe, for the parts market, and I have heard of instances of those turning up without seats.
On the late engines, finding seats has become almost random since most blocks by now have been through exchange rebuilding systems and are not in their original chassis.
 
Bruce Lancaster said:
The change was both chronological and related to use, apparently. I think earlier new series engines all got seats, then some dropped to exhaust only and late passenger car engines got none. Trucks got 16 til the end. I believe Model A's and B's manufactured after some time in the mid-thirties (they were produced for industrial use, diamond blocks) got hard seats, probably at the same time production V8's got them.
All the early flatheads after 193? got 16...I don't have any from that mid-thirties period and I'm not sure when they became standard.
There was a general dropping of expensive Ford features as cost cutting after 1947, as the new accountant-dominated structure took over from the engineers.
Some 59 engines were made for a few years after 1948, I believe, for the parts market, and I have heard of instances of those turning up without seats.
On the late engines, finding seats has become almost random since most blocks by now have been through exchange rebuilding systems and are not in their original chassis.
Click to expand...

Bruce,
Thanks, I think.
Anyway, I think that the 8CM that I am getting..is out of a truck, as it has an oil pan with 'rear sump' (?) truck configuration. So, by your explanation, most likely, the truck engine application flatty ..would have the seat inserts..no! BTW, Bruce sure glad you're here to help us! lol
 
For building a strong engine in the large displacement or for hi-RPm the 52-3 blocks can be fitted with 1.72 intakes and 1.6 exhaust. This along with some simple oprt mods can improve breathing a great deal. Not much help for a street engine.
 
Ol' Ron said:
For building a strong engine in the large displacement or for hi-RPm the 52-3 blocks can be fitted with 1.72 intakes and 1.6 exhaust. This along with some simple oprt mods can improve breathing a great deal. Not much help for a street engine.
Click to expand...
Mr. Ol' Ron,
I'm just trying to get into the V8 flathead engine, as I've only just messed with 4 bangers. Is the '52-3 block and 8CM (merc) the same block? What is your opinion of the 8CM...i.e.- did I pick the wrong one to start off my V8 career(however short)with? I'd like to make an AV8 project of it..man, so many questions/unknowns..fun tho! Rick
 
All of the 8BAs including the Mercury share the same block with the crankshaft being the difference. Sometime in the 1951 model year the valves were changed to a rotator type valve and these were used till the end of production. Many folks convert back to the earlier type valves during an overhaul so they will have no problem finding the parts in the future. In 1952 Ford quit using hardened seats in the basic passenger block as Bruce mentioned earlier. That doesn't make the block any less usable at all. In fact, a rebuilder can cut or grind faces for valve seats several times before even worrying about putting in hardened seats. If a person wants them in the exhaust, he can have a machine shop do it with the only concern that they are reputable and have some flathead experience under there belt. I would use a late 8BA block in a New York minute if it was in good condition.

Kerby
 
hardtimes said:
flatjack9,
This 8CM....is a merc engine!
Click to expand...
I realize that. You made the comment that it had a rear sump pan which you associated with a truck. This is true, but the Merc had a rear sump pan also. The two are not exactly the same. Someone posted pictures of all the pan varieties, but I don't remember where it is.
 
The truck pan has the clean out cover in the bottom of the sump and the starter plate support is spot welded to the back. The 49 through early 51 (8CM) had three studs on the bottom of the rear edge of the pan where the starter plate suport bolts on and no clean out. Both my early 51 8CM engines have hardened seats and early non-rotator valves just like the 49 & 50 motors.

If the motor is in a truck and has 8CM heads I wouldn't even know if it was a Mercury for certain unless the Canadian Mercury pick ups & trucks used Mercury motors. Heads can be swapped to any block. Mercury 8CM heads have a larger clearance volume to compensate for the larger stroke and 1CM & EAC heads have an even larger clearance volume than the 8CM if I remember correctly.
 
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