Running without waterpump?

Old Redneck

Old Redneck

Well-known member
I have always had a waterpump on my T's and no problem. My buddy's run without one and do fine. I am finishing a 27 Roadssster and I am going to run WITHOUT a waterpump. Will see how I do.I so have a Ruckstell high speed rearend. I love touring in a T.Sure wish summer was here. Winter not my bag of tea anymore.
 

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I've successfully driven many thousands of miles in Model Ts with AND without waterpumps!
 
No, Henry didn't have water pumps, out side brakes, or a good steering box, but he seen the error of his ways, and fixed them in the Model A. The back cylinder on a Model T is the one that always runs hotter then the rest. A water pump exchanges the water around that area, and keeps a more even Temp. A Thermostat can also be used to great advantage, as a T Carb. will work better, on real hot, and Humid days, and very cool days. Especially on a new engine, where everthing is tight, a Hot engine, BOILING, and alot of times, way over boiling, can weaken rings, warp valves, Warp heads, mess up gaskets, burn the oil, glaze bands, and real easy, it can soften babbitt, and smear the bearings, and yes, even inserts, and it only takes once. Ya, they will run with out that stuff, but compared to what. Herm.
 
Kohnke Rebbatting .....................
I am not advocating that a car does not need a waterpump. It's that so many "T" Model owners get by without them.
MIKE :)
 
FL&WVMIKE said:
Kohnke Rebbatting .....................
I am not advocating that a car does not need a waterpump. It's that so many "T" Model owners get by without them.
MIKE :)
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Ya Mike, there are alot of people that run with out pumps I here, I don't know any personally, and there are old pumps that were not any good when they were new, but we don't use those kind. Their were at least 50 plus pump builders, there must have been a great need for them by somebody's standards, when I was 16, you could see about 20 pumps, on each swap meet table. If someone can say they will never be in a parade, or slow to stopped traffic on a 90 degree day, you probably can get by, Key words Get By.What I am saying is if you take a chance with out a pump, and it boils, on a tight new engine. your are losing Goody out of all parts of your engine, that you will never get back. Also we don't have any trouble with leaking water pumps, as we rebuild them with Stainless Steel shafts, and modern seals, no leakers. Herm.:)
 
I guess I'll stir the s@#^ here and get in the fray. Last year on the Model T International tour Brent's car leaked profusely so we took the pump off. I wasn't using one so why did he need one :confused: right. Anyone here ever climbed the hill to Mt. Rushmore? Even modern junk has a hard time there but his 1916 touring and my express made it to the top and didn't even get hot enough to loose any water. Convinced me. Now I wouldn't do it with an A but, the T runs great without a pump, water or oil.:D
 
I hope my last post was not misunderstood. I live in South central Texas where we often experience 100 degree days in the summer. I run some parades and a lot of local car tours with only a rare boil WITH OUT a water pump. If one of my cars start to boil, I fix the problem, not try to mask the problem with a pump that usually does not solve the problem. Common problems are clogged radiators inside and outside and also calcium and other mineral deposit in the block plugging correct water flow. Don't forget the fan, it needs to help move the air.
 
James Rogers said:
I guess I'll stir the s@#^ here and get in the fray. Last year on the Model T International tour Brent's car leaked profusely so we took the pump off. I wasn't using one so why did he need one :confused: right. Anyone here ever climbed the hill to Mt. Rushmore? Even modern junk has a hard time there but his 1916 touring and my express made it to the top and didn't even get hot enough to loose any water. Convinced me. Now I wouldn't do it with an A but, the T runs great without a pump, water or oil.:D
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James, I didn't say they wouldn't run with out a pump, I guess I remember that they came from the factory with out a pump. Driving down the road is a hole lot different, in high gear or even in low then it is setting in 90 degrees in a parade, its bad enough with a water pump. YA, I was at Rushmore in 1990, on the same last hill, and I would say if you couldn't pull that hill in low with out it boiling, theres something wrong with the car. That is find and dandy, but a deal like that where you are just pulling a hill in low gear is no big deal, we have longer, and steeper hills here in Iowa. Ford didn't come out with rear brakes on the T ether, and I know that alot of T guys say the trany brakes are all you need, and I will bet they haven't rebuilt enough T rear ends to see a good number with the Pinion loose, keyway shot, Pinion split, or the shaft just wore real bad ready to shed the gear. The first one I saw when I was 15, I knew I would never drive a T with out, outside brakes, and I haven't. Ever wonder why it is so hard to find good used drive shafts. When that pinion goes, you are at the mercy, of gravity, and momentum. Now weather some one uses a water pump on there engine or not, I could care less, but son, I know what heat does to an engine, and especially, with New tight clearance. If a Costumer told me he wasn't going to use a waterpump, I would still give him the same Warranty we always have given, 6 Months, or 6 Thousand, but I would make Note of it on the Ticket. PS. That must be a very unusual T to run with out a Pump, Water, or Oil!! Herm.
 
Kohnke Rebabbitting said:
James, I didn't say they wouldn't run with out a pump, I guess I remember that they came from the factory with out a pump. Driving down the road is a hole lot different, in high gear or even in low then it is setting in 90 degrees in a parade, its bad enough with a water pump. YA, I was at Rushmore in 1990, on the same last hill, and I would say if you couldn't pull that hill in low with out it boiling, theres something wrong with the car. That is find and dandy, but a deal like that where you are just pulling a hill in low gear is no big deal, we have longer, and steeper hills here in Iowa. Ford didn't come out with rear brakes on the T ether, and I know that alot of T guys say the trany brakes are all you need, and I will bet they haven't rebuilt enough T rear ends to see a good number with the Pinion loose, keyway shot, Pinion split, or the shaft just wore real bad ready to shed the gear. The first one I saw when I was 15, I knew I would never drive a T with out, outside brakes, and I haven't. Ever wonder why it is so hard to find good used drive shafts. When that pinion goes, you are at the mercy, of gravity, and momentum. Now weather some one uses a water pump on there engine or not, I could care less, but son, I know what heat does to an engine, and especially, with New tight clearance. If a Costumer told me he wasn't going to use a waterpump, I would still give him the same Warranty we always have given, 6 Months, or 6 Thousand, but I would make Note of it on the Ticket. PS. That must be a very unusual T to run with out a Pump, Water, or Oil!! Herm.
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I meant no water pump or oil pump since the T has no provision for an oil pump. BTW, we also drove through the Badlands wide open the same way and climbed those hills with temps in the low 100's and no problems. Not saying not to run a pump but it is not absolutely necessary and the T will do it.
 
James Rogers said:
I meant no water pump or oil pump since the T has no provision for an oil pump. BTW, we also drove through the Badlands wide open the same way and climbed those hills with temps in the low 100's and no problems. Not saying not to run a pump but it is not absolutely necessary and the T will do it.
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James, your just not getting it. Driving down the road you get cooling air, modern cars don't even use a fan going down the road, it comes on in slow or stoped times, or on, and off when you are stoped in a heated environment thats where you can have problems. It is a fact, on most Model T's the rear cylinder wears the most, what do you think that is from, running COLD. ((((Its not the fact that it didn't BOIL, its the FACT that if, and when it does, it is detrimental to you engine.)))) There are alot of cars today with Aluminum heads, you boil them once, and many times the only thing to fix it is a new head, and if your car is older, the car isn't worth the price of the head, and labor. Fact, heat raises heck with engine in many ways, so if you recommend to your Model T costumer, that there is no need for a water pump on your new rebuild, Because yours didn't boil once, then you should have no problem standing behined your Recommendation, or what would you say, it was there fault, because they must have left the spark lever up, thats why the head and the manifold are warped. So tell me the down side to a good Model T Pump. And don't tell me it leaks, as so does a Motor- Knock until you fix them when they get wore out. And after the Pump is rebuilt, and its a short while before it leaks again, send it to someone that knows how to fix them. Herm.
 
If you have a junk radiator and lots of rust and scale clogging the water jackets, run a water pump. If you have a good clean radiator and have popped the head and cleaned out the water jackets, then give your water pump to someone who needs it. A water pump on an over heating T is like a band aid on your bleeding finger...when you need it, you need it. But I wouldn't want to go through life putting band aids on the same bleeding finger. I would hope that my body would make the effort to heal and stop bleeding.
 
Paul from Maine said:
If you have a junk radiator and lots of rust and scale clogging the water jackets, run a water pump. If you have a good clean radiator and have popped the head and cleaned out the water jackets, then give your water pump to someone who needs it. A water pump on an over heating T is like a band aid on your bleeding finger...when you need it, you need it. But I wouldn't want to go through life putting band aids on the same bleeding finger. I would hope that my body would make the effort to heal and stop bleeding.
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Ya Paul, its sounds like you just had a serious commonsensical hemorrhage.
 
I run a 1914 T without a water pump and a new radiator. The car did have a water pump when I bought it but I removed it when it gurgled a bit after running at an idle. I thought it would run cooler without the pump by getting more flow through the radiator. It still will boil a bit if it idles too long. The car just doesn't like to idle for more than a few minutes. Most of the time when I drive the car, the temperature here in Maine is less than 80F.

Last summer I experimented with a temperature measurement device in the radiator tank with the wires coming out of the overflow tube to an indicator mounted on the dash. I found that the car normally runs at 200 to 205F while driving the car. If I shut the car off promptly after driving it, it does not gurgle. If I stop at a stop sign or go up a steep hill, the temperature will climb to 212F within a few of minutes. I have to do a bit more work on this temperature measuring device but will write it up this spring. It is comforting to know that I am not overheating when I know the car is operating right on the edge of boiling. Ed
 
Ed,

Good info on the water temp measurements.
That is how the thermosiphon(sp?) system works best right at the boiling pt. A little more heat and Lizzie becomes a steamer.

Larry
 
Recall, I think it worth mentioning, that in the time of the model T, the antifreeze solution was alcohol, with a much lower boiling point. And as Willie sez, high ambient temps would surely have a bearing on engine temp. So, at both extremes seems to me where a T could use a water pump! Incidentally, HO, I have an original Klondike for sale. It must have made em run cooler....why else would they name it Klondike? Perry in Idaho
 
alcohol was cheaper then antifreeze also back then. But didn't some use kerosene in the radiator?A lot of people use to cover the engine and radiator to protect from the cold.Had to drain the block every night also.I think you hit the nail on the head why the waterpump was used because alcohol had a much lower boiling point then all others even water,antifreeze.I don't know what the boiling point of kerosene is. Very good point Thanks.
 
Back in the day they didnt have traffic lights or stop signs because it was nothing but long dirt roads and small citys, so haveing the car idle for a while wasnt a problem back then, like it is now. When i drive my T on a tour i dont have a problem over heating even when its 90 degrees. I only have a problem when im driving in the city with all the lights.
 
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