Restoration Qs... running board brackets & paint
- Thread starter d.j. moordigian
- Start date
Roadster62
Well-known member
I can understand using hot rivets building a skyscraper in a big city, but the time involved with 12 hot rivets on a moving assembly line vs a good air gun makes me wonder. 
I don't believe THAT was the original posters question
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mot
Registered User
in the Yokohama ford video
it clearly shows the rivets being installed hot
you can see them glowing
one man inserts it in the hole.and another has a ceiling mounted rivet gun
it looks like a big "C" clamp,he just positions it over the newly installed white hot rivet and in seconds its done ,and hes on to the next one
it clearly shows the rivets being installed hot
you can see them glowing
one man inserts it in the hole.and another has a ceiling mounted rivet gun
it looks like a big "C" clamp,he just positions it over the newly installed white hot rivet and in seconds its done ,and hes on to the next one
Roadster62
Well-known member
Guess that answers things, thank you mot.
peters180a/170b
Well-known member
Somewhere there's got to be a picture showing this.
Steve Plucker
BANNED
Pete,
I know it was the assembly plant in Japan, but would the Yokohama A video be enough proof?
Thanks.
Pluck
Rowdy
BANNED
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Roger V
Well-known member
Back when I was showing my '31 Deluxe Roadster in MARC fine point, I thought I'd also try AACA. A guy who was "training" AACA judges for Model A's asked to use my roadster for reference. While doing so he made several errors forwhich I told him/them so as not to screw contenders. After the third or fourth, he led his flock to another Model A. And so that was my last AACA National Meet to have a car judged.
peters180a/170b
Well-known member
In that case ,i would of told him he does not know what he's talking about .I did that to a team judge! What are they going to do to me anyway? Nothing. i give a rats ***. I took over the team that year with the team captain not minding.
Steve Plucker
BANNED
I read where the frames were finished with pryloxin (lacquer).
I have an AA frame with some real good "Black" paint still showing...I wonder just how one could tell after 80 years or so if the paint is truly lacquer or enamel.
That is a great question Gary!
Pluck
I have an AA frame with some real good "Black" paint still showing...I wonder just how one could tell after 80 years or so if the paint is truly lacquer or enamel.
That is a great question Gary!
Pluck
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Gary, isn't the concensus that originally, any scratches or bare spots (i.e.: uncoated rivets) were spot sprayed with Pyroxylin Black paint?
The one thought provoking point that comes up (at least to me and a couple of others) is the point where we are supposed to "freeze time" and judge each vehicle is 'as it rolled off the assembly line'.
Japan Black is thought of as a dull, loss-gloss Black yet the MAFCA published Paint & Refinish Guide states on page 15 that the frame paint had a large percentage of asphaltum and mineral spirits. When I have looked at large blocks of asphalt tar at a roofing supply store, they have been moderately glossy in the flat areas where they were split open. Now I have no clue as to what the exact mixture was between the JB and the Asphaltum, but several years ago I crushed some asphalt roofing tar and mixed it into some Japan Black that I also mixed (which again is a slurry of tar, mineral spirits, and some Gilsonite that a friend of mine had been experimenting painting his Model T with). My concoction looked like a thick used motor oil that came out of a diesel engine. Since I did not want to try to spray it through any of my spray guns, we poured and/or dipped the solution on several pieces of steel and allowed it to dry. For about a week it stayed "printable" to the touch, AND it had a sheen to it until after it had dried. At that time I did not have my new powdercoating oven so we did not bake it but later I did mix up some small pieces and bake them just to see what it did. The biggest thing we saw was the heat actually caused the stuff to 'run' and sag and be thinner on the part but it still stayed more glossy than what some people seem to want to believe. Again, I have no idea exactly what the composition of the Japan Black was originally, or what the make-up of the Asphaltum was, --nor what levels any of this was mixed at. I also do not know the time frame from when the frames were originally painted & baked until the time they were on the finished vehicle going out the door.
The "key word" in what Gary is asking is 'judging' in my opinion. I think it really depends on whose competition we are entered in. The Stds of which both clubs have adopted clearly states on page 12 in the left column, bottom paragraph NOT to use any outside technical knowledge unless it is printed in the Stds. It also goes on to say that "The measure of a restorer's efforts shall be evaluated against the Standards and nothing more". On page 4 in Area 4 under FRAME ASSEMBLY, it states that frames were painted black and no parts were rubbed out. PERIOD!! No where can I find in that chapter does it refer you to the MAFCA Paint & Refinish Guide for guidance on the different levels of Black, or how thick/thin the paint was, or whether there must be stamping marks visible, --nor does it say you cannot use powderpaint. It does not even say to look for over-restoration on the frame. All it says is the "Frames were painted black and no parts were rubbed out".
Now none of what I said above should ever be construed that a restorer cannot try to think through and mimick what these finishes might have been like originally HOWEVER Gary's question is "For judging, should the ..." and the answer really should be any type, or gloss-level of Black is acceptable and receive full credit. Naturally if a restorer wants to detail the frame by using these different levels of gloss and texture, my thinking is this should be acceptable however no extra credit should be given as it is written in the Stds. If I am in error on any of this, please show me and I will gladly retract my thoughts.
.
The one thought provoking point that comes up (at least to me and a couple of others) is the point where we are supposed to "freeze time" and judge each vehicle is 'as it rolled off the assembly line'.
Japan Black is thought of as a dull, loss-gloss Black yet the MAFCA published Paint & Refinish Guide states on page 15 that the frame paint had a large percentage of asphaltum and mineral spirits. When I have looked at large blocks of asphalt tar at a roofing supply store, they have been moderately glossy in the flat areas where they were split open. Now I have no clue as to what the exact mixture was between the JB and the Asphaltum, but several years ago I crushed some asphalt roofing tar and mixed it into some Japan Black that I also mixed (which again is a slurry of tar, mineral spirits, and some Gilsonite that a friend of mine had been experimenting painting his Model T with). My concoction looked like a thick used motor oil that came out of a diesel engine. Since I did not want to try to spray it through any of my spray guns, we poured and/or dipped the solution on several pieces of steel and allowed it to dry. For about a week it stayed "printable" to the touch, AND it had a sheen to it until after it had dried. At that time I did not have my new powdercoating oven so we did not bake it but later I did mix up some small pieces and bake them just to see what it did. The biggest thing we saw was the heat actually caused the stuff to 'run' and sag and be thinner on the part but it still stayed more glossy than what some people seem to want to believe. Again, I have no idea exactly what the composition of the Japan Black was originally, or what the make-up of the Asphaltum was, --nor what levels any of this was mixed at. I also do not know the time frame from when the frames were originally painted & baked until the time they were on the finished vehicle going out the door.
The "key word" in what Gary is asking is 'judging' in my opinion. I think it really depends on whose competition we are entered in. The Stds of which both clubs have adopted clearly states on page 12 in the left column, bottom paragraph NOT to use any outside technical knowledge unless it is printed in the Stds. It also goes on to say that "The measure of a restorer's efforts shall be evaluated against the Standards and nothing more". On page 4 in Area 4 under FRAME ASSEMBLY, it states that frames were painted black and no parts were rubbed out. PERIOD!! No where can I find in that chapter does it refer you to the MAFCA Paint & Refinish Guide for guidance on the different levels of Black, or how thick/thin the paint was, or whether there must be stamping marks visible, --nor does it say you cannot use powderpaint. It does not even say to look for over-restoration on the frame. All it says is the "Frames were painted black and no parts were rubbed out".
Now none of what I said above should ever be construed that a restorer cannot try to think through and mimick what these finishes might have been like originally HOWEVER Gary's question is "For judging, should the ..." and the answer really should be any type, or gloss-level of Black is acceptable and receive full credit. Naturally if a restorer wants to detail the frame by using these different levels of gloss and texture, my thinking is this should be acceptable however no extra credit should be given as it is written in the Stds. If I am in error on any of this, please show me and I will gladly retract my thoughts.
.
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The rivets used on the various frame components/brackets can easily be headed cold with the right equipment. Logic dictates that it was done that way; as having to heat the rivets red hot and then installing and then putting the frame (orientation) into a machine to head the rivets would have been time consuming. No, I don't have anything to substantiate that except that was something that could be done as an "accepted practice".
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Chet, did you read thru the above information ...specifically post number 24 and what is seen in viewing the Yokohama films? If not, take a moment and read what MOT wrote.
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d.j. moordigian
Well-known member
Frustration and perseverance hopefully will lead me to the end of this project. I have
places on my chassis that still has paint, one is the frame(9" long), another on the
RBB, but none on the 12 rivets (either side) has any that I have found YET. I know I
have upset some people with my anger(frustration) over this paint thing, that just me.
I now KNOW what some "sheen's" that I'm looking for on the chassis. I have more Qs.,
after the dust clears.
Thanks to all who have posted here, plus Dave Lopes.......Dudley
places on my chassis that still has paint, one is the frame(9" long), another on the
RBB, but none on the 12 rivets (either side) has any that I have found YET. I know I
have upset some people with my anger(frustration) over this paint thing, that just me.
I now KNOW what some "sheen's" that I'm looking for on the chassis. I have more Qs.,
after the dust clears.
Thanks to all who have posted here, plus Dave Lopes.......Dudley
Midwest Tin
Well-known member
To all,
A friend had purchase a NOS 31 Frame assy without the running board bkts. The frame had all the other bkts riveted to it. The frame had the dull black finish (aged) and all rivets had light surface rust. No signs of any heat damage around the rivet areas. I can only assume the rivets were installed cold. Unfortunately the frame has been sand blasted and in primer now. I will check to see if any photos were taken prior to sand blasting. Jim
A friend had purchase a NOS 31 Frame assy without the running board bkts. The frame had all the other bkts riveted to it. The frame had the dull black finish (aged) and all rivets had light surface rust. No signs of any heat damage around the rivet areas. I can only assume the rivets were installed cold. Unfortunately the frame has been sand blasted and in primer now. I will check to see if any photos were taken prior to sand blasting. Jim
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Jim, again I am struggling with these assumptions about the rivets being installed cold (even if the video was not evidence enough) but because only the rivet would need to be heated and then installed hot. Because of that, why would there be any heat damage shown around the rivet areas? The rivets were not heated after being installed in the frame, --they were heated prior to being inserted and then bucked. Any heat dissipation would have warmed the asphaltum but as soon as it solidified, what would it looked like then?? Wouldn't it look just like the surounding asphaltum that was sprayed and then heated to dry. Look at the installation tool in the picture above that shows the channel (breech) that the rivet is dropped into and then the rivet is pushed into position.