Restoration Qs... running board brackets & paint

d.j. moordigian

d.j. moordigian

Well-known member
Since the frame is spray painted without the running board brackets installed,
the brackets dipped, you have 2 different " glosses ". After the brackets
are installed, with red hot rivets, how or what method did they use to
touch-up those areas? Any help.

Dudley
 
put the brackets on and paint the whole frame with brackets. If it is getting down to that with judging [ITS TIME TO QUIT!].No one that i know of will deduct points[yet!]. The way it sounds with all the different "BLACK" correct finish and unpolished ,unrubbed out ,,you would need to two tone your cars! Take the firewall and under rear fenderwells/floor pans. Then "NEW" paints of today you can use flatterns but temp and harder/thinners still will change the results for what you are looking for..People in the restoration business knows what i am talking about.
 
Peter, take a moment and pull your head out of your XXX (Judging Stds.) and re-read what he asked.

Dudley, how they did it back then is by having an assembly line worker at various times use either a spray gun or brush with Pyroxilyn (similar to lacquer paint) that was sprayed/brushed randomly over the top of the bare areas as a way to prevent corrosion from weather. Thus you would see 3 different type of materials and/or sheens of Black.

.
 
Easy to tell him "BUY" the MODEL "A' Finish [,Paint & Finish Guide book.] Put out by MAFCA.[its all in the book]. I would think someone who is asking that kind of question is restoring a car for Fine point judging ? Other then that a person does not need to know that with a driver[they could care less].Guess i gave out more information then he needed or anyone else wanted to know..
 
:rolleyes: Well .............maybe but not necessarily. IMO you just assumed THAT and really did not answer his question. ;) The MAFCA published Paint & Refinish book is not to be recognized or used by MARC during judging. The biggest majority of the cars my shop restores never are entered in any MARC or MAFCA competition however their owners desire the "detail" such as the flat Black on the frame, gloss Black on brackets, and etc. The same thing applies with flattened paint in the engine compartment, the interior and the bottom side of the body. Therefore we try to mimick these details for them.

.
 
"O" My friend Brent,, First,, Hope all is well ,,, Paint & Refinish guide book [not recognized by MARC] .Please pass that onto some of the judges that belong to both clubs! And please don't get me started again . FACT my car scored 482 i wrote to Chief Judge and showed the wrong carryover in points. Take that and add the wrong calls on rear fenders,running boards ,cowl wire ,nuts and bolts and well its all storys now. But 482 is in stone. Will you be making Hershey this year?:p
 
Peter & Brent;

Thanks for the reply, I was just thinking how it was done. When I go to paint the frame,
I may just do that. I'm just trying to get this damn thing close and I don't know if it's
a fine points car are not.

Man, I love this forum, FB.
 
Peter, all is well, ..........and I (tongue-in-cheek) think you need to petition the JS Committee to consider offering an 'Appeals' process BEFORE the fine-point cars are ever removed from the show floor. Limit the appeals to 5 items or less per vehicle in all 23 areas, ...and dis-allow Workmanship related grievences.

Maybe if the Chief Judge, Team Captains and the JS Committee embrace the idea that these judging venues are all about bettering a vehicle, the Team captain and/or the Chief Judge can offer insight on why they felt a deduction was appropriate. Maybe this could happen the day following the actual judging so everyone is of fresh mind (and civil!! :D ) If an error in judgment was indeed made, then the score can be corrected by the Team Captain and the Chief Judge collectively if both are in agreement. Also add into this prcess that if disrespect is shown towards the officials, --or if unsportsmanlike conduct is shown by the car owner (or his designee) during this appeals process, then the C/J has the power to disqualify the vehicle from the entire competition.

Peter, while I had vehicles in competition that I felt had obvious mistakes made (one of my car owners car missed his MARC of Excellence by 8 points) and if an appeals process would have been available where I could have pointed out the alledged errors, the scoring outcome would likely be different BUT, when we reflect on and follow our initial goals of just wanting to see how the vehicle would score, these errors are moot. Even if we were scored incorrectly, we know what the truth is and it really does not matter does it? Again, we choose to consider it an honor to be included in the competition.

One question I have for you is this, ...Based on your returned scoring sheets, is there anything you learned about your vehicle from the judging process in French Lick that you now realize that you or your team restored incorrectly, ...or is incorrect on your car? Will you correct these issues?

.
 
Brent, The Paint and Finish Guide was accepted by both clubs in the early nineties as a supplememt to the Restoratio Guidelines and Judging Standards. Whether MARC chooses to use the information for judging purposes is a different question.
 
Hey Doug, you are probably correct however it does not say that in the Stds does it?

I was under the impression that it kinda talks about this on Page 12 on the Judging Instructions? (My Stds are at the shop and not where I can quickly review them right now.) The way I understood it, at any MARC meet (French Lick in particular) during competition, the only outside guidence is supposed to be from original FORD published materials (Service Letters, Svc Bulletins, Ford Parts Lists, etc.)??

Also, didn't Larry hold up the J/S Manual at the meeting and say something to the effect that "this book" is the only one we will be using tomorrow during judging? Did I misunderstand?

.
 
Last edited:
Brent as i said before . 1 [front fenders lite serrations ,,,hood shelf 28/29type-hindge???? ,,,hood lost rivet -to much paint..total lost 1-1/2 points] .2 wheels i can change and will, i had 2 Kelsey-Hayes and 3 Hamilton = 2 points lost there. JS states on pg. 2-10 cowl lite wire black with yellow tracer...-on sheet [should be black] % off of that. What bothers me is [RP] on my rear n.o.s. fenders and bracket and mint restored running boards. Had nothing to do with the rubber or trim just the boards and brackets?? So the only parts i'll change is the 2 wheels at this point. I can not or will not change Bill Sturms top trim or find someone who will make a special run for top boot material .Area 12 Interior trim,i can only guess on my orginial inside door handles.I had them done in bright Nickel and JS has butler finish. But most of all i am now doing this for myself. No more MARC/MAFCA National meets in fine point judging for me [i am cooked].I sit in the car ,drive down the road at a slow pace and enjoy the sound and the view.[That's what Larry said the JS book only -Brent.] Hello Doug ,,,when that lady judge sitting next to you at the Judges/owners meeting asked a question or made a comment and to you she was correct you had me crack up... You made a sign of a hockey player who had just made the winning goal.. Loved it..:D seemed she had the only pair of balls in the group!
 
Last edited:
Brent, I don't know if Larry is aware that the Finish Guide is an accepted supplement. Also, the hardware book that Mick Isbell put together several years ago is accepted as a supplement. These books provide additional information to what is included in the Standards. In the case of a conflict, the Standards are the final word. I believe any conflict between the Finish Guide and the Standards will be resolved when the new revision is published. These books are acceptable because they are based on original Ford documentation/information. The MARC JSC has decided to not judge the level of gloss for the last few meets. However, I think most restorers just want to duplicate the original look of the Ford produced car. Consequently more people are paying attention to the level of gloss and it will eventually be judged that way (IMHO).
 
Ok, I have a Question as to where a person can get the above two Supplements.. If one cant, Any time line on the new Standards being published ?/..
 
The Paint and Finish Guide is available from MAFCA and the Hardware book can be purchased from MARC. The first portion of Revision 3 is nearly ready for the editor. Trying to get it published by the end of this year.
 
Back to the original posters question. Were the running board bracket rivets really hot, or just bucked with a proper air tool?
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Peter, all is well, ..........and I (tongue-in-cheek) think you need to petition the JS Committee to consider offering an 'Appeals' process BEFORE the fine-point cars are ever removed from the show floor. Limit the appeals to 5 items or less per vehicle in all 23 areas, ...and dis-allow Workmanship related grievences.
.
Click to expand...

I don't know, I kind of like that!
 
Roadster62 said:
Back to the original posters question. Were the running board bracket rivets really hot, or just bucked with a proper air tool?
Click to expand...

I don't believe THAT was the original posters question :D ...but yes the rivets would have been hot prior to installtion and would have been bucked. In your opinion and based on your research, do you have reason to believe they were not, --or that heating wasn't necessary?

.
 
I for one would believe the rivets were bucked with a air tool. Even today would anyone use a HOT rivet on a painted frame and sprayed right after with pyroxilyn or paint? Seems to me that would be working backwards and Ford did not work that way. Brent you have a very good point as i have said before .Day after a question and answer to where one lost points .At that point my rear fenders and running boards would be addressed along with other questions.And i would not mind using my car for a CLASS for people wanting to become a judge was looking on... A.A.C.A. does that before a meet sometimes.They walk around and show how to judge a car and what to look for.
 
Last edited:
Installing, or assembling, the running board brackets and the 12 rivets which held them to the frame (3 each bracket) was the second, #2 operation, in the Final Assembly process of the car (or truck) according to an article in the August 16, 1928 issue of American Machinist by Fay Leone Faurote.

Unfortuantly, the assembly process does not say if they were put on cold or hot.

What it does say is this "Rivet, using bar and hammer to hold in place for press operation". The #3 operation was "Place in machine and rivet twelve rivets, one rivet at a time" using a "Southwark compressed air press" but no mention of rivets being hot or cold.

Even in his article on the "Fabricating The Frame"...no mention of rivetes being installed hot or cold.

So, I guess it is still up in the air.

Pluck
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top