Repro Fender Blues

Doug in NJ

Doug in NJ

Well-known member
Hello,

I've been working on fitting a repro front fender to my car (with original splash shields). The lip that bolts up the the splash shield was way off, but I managed to fix it up with my stretcher. But how i have this to deal with. As you can see, the rear edge of the fender is not parallel to the running board: there is a small gap on the inside, but at least a 1/4" gap on the outside. (BTW, the frame is quite straight, and the original fender and a fiberglass repro fit just fine.) The various pre-drilled holes like up pretty well with holes on the frame.

Any suggestions on how to proceed? I am thinking of removing the reinforcing strip, straightening out the rear lip, re-bending it in the correct location, and adding a bit of new metal to the rear lip and the side.

Another problem is that the bends for the side and rear lips are not sharp enough. That must be a high-wear area on the dies. But I'm not sure that is worth trying to fix.

Thanks,
Doug
 

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Tighten the three bolts joining the fender and the running board and the gap will close. The pictured gap isn't all that bad. Not ideal, of course, but tolerable. I've dealt with worse using original parts.
Yes, the repo '30-31 front fenders are a challenge. It's not a problem of worn out dies. The repo front fenders have been "bad" since they first appeared. Complaints about fit go back to the 1980's. Nothing was done to correct the problem by the manufacturer that I am aware of. The usual solution is to print a warning in the vendor catalogs that the fit needs work. This one item probably tops every Model A restorer's list of most poorly made repo parts.
Marshall
 
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you would think for what this part costs that they could be done right. The vendors caution note caused me to seek out originals.
 
I did like Marshall and it pulled together ok. Not the professional thing to do but most people will never notice it. The biggest problem to me is if you're using a repro and an original. Looking from the front the droop on the front edge is very noticeable. I used repro on both right and left so at least the droop wasn't noticeable.
 
Several yrs. ago I restored a 30 tudor for another gentleman & used repro fenders I had the same gap but it was further apart, almost an inch at the outside. I used long bolts & tightened them a little over a 3-4 day period & everything was fine. On one the angle from where it rested on the frame & curved up was off badly also.
 
holdover said:
you would think for what this part costs that they could be done right. The vendors caution note caused me to seek out originals.
Click to expand...

Let us chat a tad off-topic and ask you what you would do if you owned the dies.

A) Invest somewhere around 300,000 dollars of your own money to remanufacture the dies. The ROI is likely around 300 fenders. If you can average selling one pair of fenders a week, that means it will still take over 20 years just to get your money back!

B) Based on the current condition of the dies, they could be retired which eliminates a source for any new fender, ...in any condition.

C) Offer the best fender that you can with what present condition the dies are capable of, and just be honest with your customer that they are the best that you can do.


So, which option of the A, B, or C do you think is the best?
 
Brett -
In dollars and cents terms, your arguments are sound, hard to argue with. It's a big financial commitment, one that must have been decided upon with the long haul in mind, not just a quick ROI.
But I think the basic question restorers would be asking is, if someone is going to make the investment in the first place to produce such a thing as fenders, why not do it right instead of just so-so, as these fenders are and have been since the 1980's? I've got to believe more than 300 fenders have sold since Gaslight first brought them out in the early 1980's. They would have sold a TON more if the fenders had been made correctly in the first place. How much more time would it have taken to get the measurements correct before transferring them to the dies or presses that are used to make the fenders? If the fenders had been properly made, I know I alone would have probably bought 25-30 sets over the years for my cars and customers' cars instead of going the expensive and time-consuming process of trying to save rusted, twisted and deformed original fenders, with varying degrees of success.
'Dunno. As you point out, it's an expensive proposition. We in the Model A Ford community been hoping all these years that the manufacturer would modify the dies/presses to fix the problem. Why are the '28-29 front fenders so much better (albeit not perfect)? It can probably be traced back to improperly made templates for the '30-31 front fenders. As the supply of restorable original fenders continues to dry up, we may be thankful one day to even have these non-fitting fenders available. :(
Marshall
 
So I tried the "brute force" approach that a couple of people mentioned, and it appears to have worked. The next step is to fix that "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang" contour of the outer bead...

Doug
 
Marshall V. Daut said:
Brett -
In dollars and cents terms, your arguments are sound, hard to argue with. It's a big financial commitment, one that must have been decided upon with the long haul in mind, not just a quick ROI.
But I think the basic question restorers would be asking is, if someone is going to make the investment in the first place to produce such a thing as fenders, why not do it right instead of just so-so, as these fenders are and have been since the 1980's? I've got to believe more than 300 fenders have sold since Gaslight first brought them out in the early 1980's. They would have sold a TON more if the fenders had been made correctly in the first place. How much more time would it have taken to get the measurements correct before transferring them to the dies or presses that are used to make the fenders? If the fenders had been properly made, I know I alone would have probably bought 25-30 sets over the years for my cars and customers' cars instead of going the expensive and time-consuming process of trying to save rusted, twisted and deformed original fenders, with varying degrees of success.
'Dunno. As you point out, it's an expensive proposition. We in the Model A Ford community been hoping all these years that the manufacturer would modify the dies/presses to fix the problem. Why are the '28-29 front fenders so much better (albeit not perfect)? It can probably be traced back to improperly made templates for the '30-31 front fenders. As the supply of restorable original fenders continues to dry up, we may be thankful one day to even have these non-fitting fenders available. :(
Marshall
Click to expand...


Well to start with, we are talking nearly 40 years since this fender dies project began. The quality expectation level of parts made some 40 years ago is MUCH different than what we are expecting now. Ironically, the skill level for the average restorer back then was much higher than it is today. Go figure the irony in that!!

As for "doing it right", ...define 'right'. When you go to the 'Archives' and look at front fender prints, I think I found 5 different prints for 28-29 fenders and 7 different prints for 1930-31 fenders including service replacement fenders. Therefore, even if the dies were made exactly to the specifications on that print, you still have a 1 in 7 chance of them being correct. Now one person is happy and 6 others still complain about them not being right. If you want to point a finger, blame the Judging Stds. guys for researching this so folks would know what is correct in the details. :D Guys here '*****' about purists and judging but also complain about how repro parts are made incorrectly! :p


The bigger problem that I see is far too often the "Restorer" will choose price over quality citing all kinds of excuses as to why. Vendors and Manufacturers have learned this over the years. Just because a quality product is made does not ensure Model-A hobbyists will buy it. Ask Chris Burlington about his crankshafts, Tom Rootlieb, or Bill Stipe about some of his items (I.e.: shocks). For those that disagree with this, then consider cashing in your retirement and having some dies made that will let you manufacture top-quality front fenders. Any takers??
 
One thing to get excited about is the new technology of 3D printing. As the technology comes around you will be able to have an item printed to very, very precise tolerances. Google 3D printing and read some of whats coming. Wish it would hurry up! It is mostly just plastics at this point but metal is coming too.
 
As a former tool and die maker, I feel as though I can bring some more thoughts to the table than most.
1) Where are going to find a press big enough to form that big a shape?
2) How are you going to "Blank" that piece? Meaning cutting the original piece from the basic stock prior to forming.
3) Think about it, a fender is kind of a radical shape to form. Are you going to do it in one shot or two, three, or four operations? Each one requiring separate tooling.
Then there's the matter of lefts and rights, mirror imaged, double tooling.
4) Trim dies, Rarely is a piece formed to exact shape and size. It usually requires a final trimming. A large shape like a fender, maybe you can get away with trimming in a shear, by hand, but usually there are trim dies for a final cut to size.
These are some of the problems/challenges/costs I for see that anyone brave enough to try this, will encounter.
Terry
 
This is probably of little or no conciliation, but a little history from my perspective.

I bought two of the first '30-'31 Front fenders that Gaslight produced.

The first one was a Left Welled fender and I had to wait 6 months for Gaslight to begin producing the Right fenders.

At the same time I installed new Rootlieb one piece splash shields and new Pick-up running boards.

Everything fit very well with little to no modification, not at all like the photos that I have seen posted here.

Darryl in Fairbanks
 
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I have learned a lot about the repro parts and just how far you can go.

An example where I first learned the costs and what it takes. Got the repro lower rear panel for my cabriolet (same as 28-29 coupe). Kind of disappointed with the part. Size was off, the shape of the top was flat not the slight curve, no spare hole and no doublers for the bolting of the edges.

I asked why they could not do it right. The answer came from a guy who knew how to make panels. He was going to do the panel right and started costing out the process. He needed to put out like $250,000 up front. I think he ball parked having to sell a lot of the panels for $300 each to maybe break even. Who is going to pay $300 for a repro lower panel when most guys just bolt the current repro in not knowing the difference? A non-starter.

Stuff the comes into play. To make the fender you need to get some steel that was just like the metal of 1930. This means buying one of those huge rolls cause they have to make one of those huge blocks of steel at the foundry. Then you need all the correct dies and the tooling to make the beads. Major $$$$$ to get a perfect fender. So a company did their best with their budget to make a fender that will work that can be sold at a price where guys will pay.

There are still lots of usable fenders out their if you want to go that route. They can be bought at not too bad a price and they will take an experienced guy to make them right.

FWIW I have some workable 30-31 fenders in my attic I would love to sell at very reasonable prices but you would have to pick up in NJ. I even have a welled fender that was from a pickup.
 
Marshall V. Daut said:
Brett -
In dollars and cents terms, your arguments are sound, hard to argue with. It's a big financial commitment, one that must have been decided upon with the long haul in mind, not just a quick ROI.
But I think the basic question restorers would be asking is, if someone is going to make the investment in the first place to produce such a thing as fenders, why not do it right instead of just so-so, as these fenders are and have been since the 1980's? I've got to believe more than 300 fenders have sold since Gaslight first brought them out in the early 1980's. They would have sold a TON more if the fenders had been made correctly in the first place. How much more time would it have taken to get the measurements correct before transferring them to the dies or presses that are used to make the fenders? If the fenders had been properly made, I know I alone would have probably bought 25-30 sets over the years for my cars and customers' cars instead of going the expensive and time-consuming process of trying to save rusted, twisted and deformed original fenders, with varying degrees of success.
'Dunno. As you point out, it's an expensive proposition. We in the Model A Ford community been hoping all these years that the manufacturer would modify the dies/presses to fix the problem. Why are the '28-29 front fenders so much better (albeit not perfect)? It can probably be traced back to improperly made templates for the '30-31 front fenders. As the supply of restorable original fenders continues to dry up, we may be thankful one day to even have these non-fitting fenders available. :(
Marshall
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Could not agree more. It would not have been that hard to get them right in the first place. Where I used to work we would not have gotten away that kind of work.
 
George Miller said:
Could not agree more. It would not have been that hard to get them right in the first place. Where I used to work we would not have gotten away that kind of work.
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George, you totally misunderstood. They WERE right (--or very close) if you compare them to a Service Replacement fender. The problem many don't seem to understand is the information (prints) was not available to the hobbyists back then. The Archives as we know it today was not in existence then, so someone found what they thought was a NOS fender and reverse engineered it. Unfortunately they just found the wrong one, --however we need to remember that even if an original was copied to exacting standards, there was still a 1 in 6 chance that it would be correct for your car.

It is easy to criticize now, ...but each of us needs to step back and think about what we have learned about a Model-A in the last 35-40 years! I'd bet we could be just as critical of things we all did back then when we did not know any better and did the best we could.
 
I stick to what I said no reason for bad work. If they could not make it right they should have said at the time that they were not up to standard.

I for one had all the poor quality parts that I can stand.
 
I bought a set of the 30-31 fenders new in the early 80's.I have to say they were drop in the bolts and go.I also painted a half dozen sets for the local vendor I bought them from.Except for one pair they were all 30-31.The ones I bought for myself are still around here,and there is a huge difference in those and the new ones.The beads are much more crisp in the early ones,the crease under the headlight is much more pronounced in the early ones,and there is a difference in the angle between the flat part that rests on the frame and the rise up toward the headlight bar.I have worked with some new ones,I just haven't found them to be all that much work to deal with.They're just not up to par of what they were when they first came out.
 
Keith True said:
I bought a set of the 30-31 fenders new in the early 80's.I have to say they were drop in the bolts and go.I also painted a half dozen sets for the local vendor I bought them from.Except for one pair they were all 30-31.The ones I bought for myself are still around here,and there is a huge difference in those and the new ones.The beads are much more crisp in the early ones,the crease under the headlight is much more pronounced in the early ones,and there is a difference in the angle between the flat part that rests on the frame and the rise up toward the headlight bar.I have worked with some new ones,I just haven't found them to be all that much work to deal with.They're just not up to par of what they were when they first came out.
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Yes, I agree. The early ones were "right". The manufacturer knows his dies are worn and openly admits this. He only still offers them as a service to those hobbyists that need something to start with. Some folks 'Holier than Thou' attitude definitely puts others who do have a 'dog in the race' at jeopardy! It's always easy to shout from the cheap seats on how they can do better yet no one seemingly steps up and does it! Why is that?
 
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