Replaced Engine - at Factory or Later?

Tom from Drippin'

Tom from Drippin'

Senior Member
When I got the '31 Vicky, the engine # reflected a correct number for the car, but the frame # was different.

Research of the different numbers gave the following:
1. Frame number (*4301547*) indicates original engine built on Jan. 27,'31
2. Engine number (*4313503*) indicates replacement engine built on Feb. 2, '31
3. There were 7,008 engines built on Jan. 28, but none were produced on the 29th of Jan. through the 1st of Feb.
4. There were only 11,956 between the two numbers.

So, for discussion, what are the chances that the original engine had problems, and was changed at the factory, after the body was set, or, was it changed later in life and the closeness of the numbers is just a coincidence?
 
It is entirely possible that they made the car and prior to shipment found an issue. Then pulled it at either the factory lot or the dealer.

Mike
 
I would think if they put a new engine in at the factory, they would have put the original engine number on the new engine. Then destroyed the old engine.
 
Barber31 said:
Sorry to be kind of off topic, but what source did you use to find those exact dates?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I can't remember the source of the documents I found in a loose leaf binder full of stuff I printed years ago. The charts have 7 columns, as follows:
"Date; Beginning Engine No.; End Engine No.; Omitted Engines; Industrial Engines; A-6005'S Engine Assemblies*; Total Engines Produced."
Some of the charts are by year, others by month & year.I apparently did not print every page as I only printed all month / year charts for '31.
 
Another factor to consider is that when I rebuild an engine for a car I try to get a block with a serial number as close as possible to the date of production of the vehicle. I do this since there were several little changes and I don't want to get tripped up. Maybe someone else did the same thing and this would explain why the numbers were so close to each other.

Charlie Stephens
 
since the purpose of the engine and frame having the same number is to prevent theft buy stealing a car and swapping out the engine I don't believe it would have been done at the factory or dealer when new.
 
Mike V. Florida said:
since the purpose of the engine and frame having the same number is to prevent theft buy stealing a car and swapping out the engine I don't believe it would have been done at the factory or dealer when new.
Click to expand...

Just for discussion.

BUT......What if...After a car rolled off the line...the engine was discovered to be defective. Does anyone KNOW what Ford did in that case? I cannot believe that a defective engine NEVER happened.
So ..... You have a finished new car with a number "sealed" on the frame and a bad engine, and ALL the engines shipped to you, already have numbers stamped on them. Repair the original, or replace it with the next one in line?
I think it is more logical to do the quickest. Swap the engine.
 
Fix the engine is my guess and if the block was cracked get a replacement engine and stamp the old number.

Again i see no reason to replace the engine with one that already in queue for a new car.

And where do you think this is all happening? The engines are tested before they are stamped and the cars are driven off the assembly line and on the way to the dealer. Did the dealer find the "defective" engine of the the assembly line? If the assembly line then why the "rush" to get it out, why not just fix it ? If the dealer then where did the engine come from?

Like you said just a discussion?
 
all engines were "run In" before being released for the assembly line
the title would reflect the engine number that was in the car when it was sold
 
i finally found what i was looking for
these two men studied the Model extensively
and use factory records to document what they wrote
i did not want to ruin my copy on the scanner
hence the black borders
to read the full text clearly
its in MARCs Technically speaking books
volumne 4
tom
 

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I'd guess that the motor was changed at some point and the car was re-titled so that the motor number matched the title, with no regard for the inaccessible frame number. The fact that you discovered it many years later to only be 5 days apart is just a remarkable coincidence IMHO.
But , without proof, its only a theory.:)
 
Rex_A_Lott said:
to only be 5 days apart is just a remarkable coincidence IMHO.
But , without proof, its only a theory.:)
Click to expand...

5 calendar days, yes.....but for 4 of those days there were no engines produced, only 11,956 between the two numbers.

I realize that all engines were turned by electric motors with oil and water until the resistance fell below a given value and then numbered and shipped.
I just find it unlikely that of the 3,318,562 Model A's built, that none of these engines had problems when fuel and spark were added at the factory to drive them off the line.
 
Very interesting discussion! This brings up another issue that I have pondered over many times. If the engines were "broken in" with piped water and oil, what happened to the water and oil after the engine was approved for shipment. Obviously the water and oil could have been drained then routed to a large tank or routed to the next engine on the line. But as we all know when you drain the crankcase about 1 quart is left in the dipper tray and valve chamber. The Ford pictures I have seen, of engines waiting to be loaded, show them standing on the crankshaft pulley end. When you tip the engine on it's nose, oil will drain from the right hand side front motor mount bolt hole. Did they plug that hole or was the front motor mount bolted in place before shipment or??. Just some random thoughts on a slow news day in San Diego!
 
Arlyn Bieber said:
Very interesting discussion! This brings up another issue that I have pondered over many times. If the engines were "broken in" with piped water and oil, what happened to the water and oil after the engine was approved for shipment. Obviously the water and oil could have been drained then routed to a large tank or routed to the next engine on the line. But as we all know when you drain the crankcase about 1 quart is left in the dipper tray and valve chamber. The Ford pictures I have seen, of engines waiting to be loaded, show them standing on the crankshaft pulley end. When you tip the engine on it's nose, oil will drain from the right hand side front motor mount bolt hole. Did they plug that hole or was the front motor mount bolted in place before shipment or??. Just some random thoughts on a slow news day in San Diego!
Click to expand...

There was a thread on this a few days ago was there not?
 
Tom from Drippin' said:
I'm sorry I can't remember the source of the documents I found in a loose leaf binder full of stuff I printed years ago. The charts have 7 columns, as follows:
"Date; Beginning Engine No.; End Engine No.; Omitted Engines; Industrial Engines; A-6005'S Engine Assemblies*; Total Engines Produced."
Some of the charts are by year, others by month & year.I apparently did not print every page as I only printed all month / year charts for '31.
Click to expand...

Those numbers came from my site.

Pluck
 
Tom from Drippin' said:
Just for discussion.

BUT......What if...After a car rolled off the line...the engine was discovered to be defective. Does anyone KNOW what Ford did in that case? I cannot believe that a defective engine NEVER happened.
So ..... You have a finished new car with a number "sealed" on the frame and a bad engine, and ALL the engines shipped to you, already have numbers stamped on them. Repair the original, or replace it with the next one in line?
I think it is more logical to do the quickest. Swap the engine.
Click to expand...

My February 1929 Tudor, which has a February 1929 engine number stamped in the frame (the same number is also on the original title), BUT has a March 1929 engine in the chassis. Was the original engine defective? Who knows.

Pluck
 
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