rails not matching frame

[wbs]

Hello about the rails and riveted on floor pans as one “ unit”
0- i’m an amateur
1- i think my alleged 31 roadster “unit”is something else other than even 28 to 31 coupe or roadster
2-per m0del A serial number table and frame mark stamp number, it is a 31 frame
3-the car is in pieces but rails pans and cross pieces are all riveted together as a “unit”
4-i think the 3 cross channel irons that go between the 2 rails that go on the frame :should line up with the frame’s wooden block holes but mine are not even close. i think the bolts should go thru a rail hole then wood block then upper frame then nut? true or false?
5-i think the rails should have 7/16” holes in line with the holes in the frame? -my rails have no holes drilled for wood blocks
6- the number 1 wood block seems to fit both frame and rail -so i think the unit is some kind of ford but not a model A
Questions
Could this be a 32 ford unit?
Has anyone else experienced this and if so how did they solve the problem?

If i make some blocks, should the vertical space distance from frame top to bottom of rails be same distance every where front to back? I’m thinking of adding some tabs to go fiom frame holes to the unit’s cross pieces and I would have to know the correct distances frame top to rail bottom.

I don’t want to have to buy rails, floor pans etc and then not have them fit with other body parts
Where could i find in a table with the width outside to outside rails for 31 roadster?

I already bought a set of 31 roadster blocks which are useless

sorry to be so wordy

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hello .....

Where could i find in a table with the width outside to outside rails for 31 roadster?

I already bought a set of 31 roadster blocks which are useless

sorry to be so wordy

To begin with, I can tell you are frustrated ...but being wordy is fine. Where I am struggling is trying to understand what you are struggling with. The term "outside rails" I believe means something different to me than you. The bottom pieces of metal that run the length of the body are called Sills. The pieces that run perpendicular are cross-sills. If you can post some pictures of what you have, we can likely help you determine what you have and what the issue(s) might be.

As far as a table that gives the measurement, there really is not a book that lists that.

 

[rotorwrench]

Most folks refer to the two long members of the frame as the rails. The body sills have also been referred to as the subframe or subframe rails as they see different descriptions for this stuff when purchasing new replacement parts.

New parts don't always come drilled so there may not be any holes. The OP is correct in assuming the model A steel body cars, such as a 1931 roadster or coupe, will have wood blocks where the body bolts go through the sills or subframe members. All of the coupes and roadsters have subframe extensions on the front that join with the cowl. The number one wood block attaches between the extensions and the frame. The frame has a riveted on fitting there for the body to frame bolts. The wood blocks generally have a rubberized cloth pad under them as well.

There is a good diagram in the book "The Ford Model A As Henry Built It" that illustrates the different bolt locations for the different years and body types made in the model A era.

Photographs go a long way to help us ID what you have. Phone taken images are relatively easy to upload to this site as long as the resolution isn't too high in scale. They can be resized on the computer if a person knows or can find out how.

 

[wbs]

hello sorry for a confusing post---i dont have a camera but can borrow one if my attachment does not clarify

the frame hole measurements for wood blocks are shown on left for the 31 stamped roadster frame that came with the car. the sub rail & riveted cross channels measurements are shown on the right on the those that came with the frame.

as can be seen the frame holes dont match up with the cross channels. could the subrails be for a 32 ford, as the number 1 wood block fits.?

im going to have to figure a work around but one thing that i would like to know is: what is the usual space size between frame top and bottom of subrails?

 

[rotorwrench]

The roadster and coupe body sills or subrails are relatively straight. The drawing looks to have a dog leg like curve at the front. Photos of the coupe or roadster subrails can be found on several model A parts source websites. There are subtle differences between the two bodies so they aren't interchangeable. The front extensions are all the same for the bodies that used them.

The 1932 Ford frames are longer and wider than model A types plus they have curvature and stamped reliefs on the sides so they are not a very close fit. The 32 rails have to be pinched in to fit a model A body and the curvature of the top of the rail has to be compensated for with shims to hide the gap.

A photo of the body can ID it better and faster than an illustration but it doesn't look like model A from your drawing.

 

[gdmn852]

Hello, here is a couple of pictures of a Model A chassis for reference,

 

[gdmn852]

Pictures of a 31 roadster not the best but might help , last two are body sub frame with quarter panel removed.

 

[wbs]

thank you rotorwrench and gdmn
i deeply appreciate your help--i'll see if i can borrow a camera--i also am going to fashion some wood blocks that have the same thickness [ range 1 1/8 to 1 1/4" thick] as the 31 blocks that i bought but can't use and adjust the width to cross channel widths. the 3rd block shape puzzles me -i guess it is to conform to the shape of the rail/sill at that point in the rail.

very strange situation that the 1st blok fits but the others don't line up. the drill holes in the cross channels are not even over the rail but rather about 2" medially.

 

[gdmn852]

Hello again, the 1 st block will fit on frame bracket on outside of frame, a carriage bolt will fit in third hole and bolts from body frame to the front block. To get the blocks to fit into the body frame cross members , I had to use a belt sander to reduce the width, sometimes the repro parts are not exactly like the original. If I remember correctly, the next 3 blocks will fit into the body channels, also there are rubber shims , 2 originally between the wood blocks and frame. These are used to adjust for door adjustment. Do a search on the Ford Barn roadster door alignment, is a good link to Marcos site on how they work.

 

[gdmn852]

The last body block will fit in body sub frame channel at rear running length wise between body and frame, also the is a strip of anti squeak webbing that lays on top of frame to about a once beyond the splash aprons . Picture shows approximately midway of riser is the last body mount.

 

[CT Jack]

Rotorwrench's note about using the reference book "The Ford Model A As Henry Built It" which provides bolt hole fastening points for the different models & years is a good idea.
Also, cars were and still are assembled using fixtures that position components prior to final assembling. Using the proper model and year reference for the frame and sub rail attachment locations should minimize final assembly problems.

 

[wbs]

thank you gdmn and ct jack
I appreciate your help
As gdmn told me , i have used Andrews book to try tt line up blocks. Cross pieces and frame but only the 1st block lines up. The others are not off by a little but rather an inch or two. Im in the process of making some wood pieces to ge the 3 variables to line up. I believe the ctrosses block and frame holes should line up with a single bolt, right?

I wont know til i reassemble the doors etc.how things will work out. I also will try to find marco’s post on doors.

Thank you again for all your help