woofa.express
Well-known member
well that's a challenge isn't it.
radiator failure
- Thread starter woofa.express
- Start date
Railcarmover
BANNED
whirnot
Well-known member
Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level. At lower temperature at higher elevations. You may plan on an engine running at 160 degrees but they overheat from time to time and boil over. You want to take a chance of your repair coming apart at that time because you used epoxy, instead of fixing it correctly?
And I am talking modern epoxy, I did it last week.
California Travieso
Well-known member
Shouldn’t be a big challenge for a guy that does crop dusting and flying airplanes!
David Serraano
Railcarmover
BANNED
Yep,I've epoxyed radiators on pressurized systems that expand and contract..ran hell out of them,no problem..fixed cracked oil pans and transmission cases too,and the kick of it is,say on the off chance he didn't prep it correctly and it failed it wont be due to the epoxy melting.
woofa.express
Well-known member
woofa.express
Well-known member
Not so easy.
My friend Phillip is a particularly clever engineer so I asked him if he could solder my radiator. He said no he had neither the solder type which he described nor the currency on soldering. I asked if a plumber could do it as that is their work and skill and he said no again. Most of them don’t have that skill these days, they are too accustomed to using new products such as PVC and silastic.
Phillip went on to say that it needs a radiator repair shop for they would suspend in an acid bath for a period and use the correct type of solder. He went on to say he sends his radiators to a radiator shop. Not as simple as I had imagined.
My friend Phillip is a particularly clever engineer so I asked him if he could solder my radiator. He said no he had neither the solder type which he described nor the currency on soldering. I asked if a plumber could do it as that is their work and skill and he said no again. Most of them don’t have that skill these days, they are too accustomed to using new products such as PVC and silastic.
Phillip went on to say that it needs a radiator repair shop for they would suspend in an acid bath for a period and use the correct type of solder. He went on to say he sends his radiators to a radiator shop. Not as simple as I had imagined.
dave in australia
Well-known member
Sounds like an episode of bush mechanics.
updraught
Well-known member
Bush Mechanics:
Radiator patch: One of the more ingenuous bush mechanics hacks, especially handy in the relentless heat of central Australia, is to use molten lead from the interval plates of an old battery as a soldering agent to repair a cracked radiator. The lead pieces are removed and melted in a camp fire using a metal hubcap as a dish and the lead is then dripped into the radiator cracks.
https://www.facebook.com/bushmechanics/videos/1040882430899/
Radiator patch: One of the more ingenuous bush mechanics hacks, especially handy in the relentless heat of central Australia, is to use molten lead from the interval plates of an old battery as a soldering agent to repair a cracked radiator. The lead pieces are removed and melted in a camp fire using a metal hubcap as a dish and the lead is then dripped into the radiator cracks.
https://www.facebook.com/bushmechanics/videos/1040882430899/
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
Noticed handling the guts if the battery without gloves.
He must have drained acid and flushed with baking soda/water 1st?
dumb person
Well-known member
I have repaired cracks in cast iron using the propane torch and solder method. How i lived without the torch until then i don't know. One of the best buys i've ever made.
And that bush mechanics show is legit too.
And that bush mechanics show is legit too.
woofa.express
Well-known member
Hi again David. I've been thinking about your comment above. thinking about it for a long time. Here's what's on my mind. It may surprise you.
I don't believe I have the confidence in myself and this is why. I conduct my occupation in an expert and professional way and I'm good at it. When I go to do other things I have expectations of doing them the same as a professional in that particular field. I know I can't so I don't. But if I do a job it's always messy. I just have expectations of having repairs and maintenance and modifications and builds to a professional standard. Does that sound silly or dumb?
Attachments
Joe K
Well-known member
I'll finish the sentence: and liable to create localized distortion, grain growth, and embrittlement.
Better to use solder. Make sure to get 60-40 which is the "old fashioned" solder, but the solder of choice for most everything EXCEPT sweat fitting water pipes.
Use NoKorode flux https://www.rectorseal.com/nokorode-regular-paste-flux/ after careful cleaning to bare metal using like 150 sandpaper (not emery cloth) this to leave the surface a little rough to make up in mechanical attachment what you don't get in molecular attraction.
Buy the smallest container of NoKorode available - unless you're like me who bought a 2lb pot back when I was 21 years old - and I'm down about 1/3 of the pot after 43 years - you don't need much flux - just enough to "wet" the surface. Less is more when it comes to flux.
This could be done "in place" - but as mentioned best would be the radiator laying on its face and you working the engine (upper) side.
Joe K
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chap52
Well-known member
After you get it soldered up I would just, as suggested, get rid of the pressure cap. I would assume that the fluid would flow as in the old non-pressurized system. I ain't no scientist but if the pump pumps water into the top it is also pulling it out of the bottom...I think? Chap
Dave in MN
Well-known member
Woofa...
I suggest you remove the radiator and take it to a qualified radiator repair shop. This is your only cost effective solution to end up with the best result. Oh...and keep the 4# cap! You bought the sealed system after careful consideration so trust yourself. Use it. Good luck with the repair.
I take issue with those who say throw the 4# cap away.
I use a sealed system with a 4# cap on two of my cars I tour with. The first and longest installed system in my Phaeton has over 96,000 miles on the sealed system. (Third water pump though...bearings wore out!) I have not had problems with leaks in the radiators, water pumps or head gaskets. I do keep the heads torqued to 55#, use a leakless pump built by James Rupert and the sealed radiators were built by Brassworks. I often drive an entire season without the need to add water. This car will run the freeways at 65 mph in overdrive all day long no matter the hills or the temps if pressed to. (Not fun though!)
The second system recently installed and being tested with a Roof overhead valve head and an air conditioner is not working so well. The system is not leaking but it does not have enough capacity to remove all the extra heat from the souped up engine and the extra needs of the AC. So I need a bigger radiator but it will still be a sealed system. I expect it will also work flawlessly when sized correctly. If I tried to cool this with an open system, it just would not work.
From my experience, if the sealed systems are installed correctly and all the components are in good condition, they work without issue. I have also installed six additional sealed 4# systems on customer's cars who needed more capacity than the stock system could provide. These people like to drive fast and a stock system would not provide enough cooling.
Now that said, I have a stock open system in my '28 pickup that I drive 500 miles or less a year and not much over 55 mph. This open stock system works too! I have worked on many customer's stock cooling systems and find when everything is well maintained there are not issues.
If you drive your Model A like it was designed to be driven, a well maintained stock open system is all you need. If you drive faster, load your motor with non-stock systems or don't want to add water all the time you may need the extra capacity a pressurized system provides.
I believe if one is to fairly and wisely comment on the use of a pressurized system in a Model A, one should have enough experience with both stock systems and pressurized systems to know when a sealed and slightly pressurized system is the right choice. I admit I am a bit sensitive to the negative comments I hear and read about sealed systems. I often feel the need to reply to the "That's just stupid" or similar comments I get when I have my hood up. I try to be polite but it is getting more difficult as the source of the comment often ignores the fact that I am standing right there. I wasn't raised to do that or to take that! So, am I biased and sensitive? Yes!
I often respond to that type of comment by telling a little story and it goes something like this: I am usually close to the last car in the line of cars when we participate in Club tours and I always stop to help those having trouble. To help all the touring people, I carry lots of spare parts and two jugs of water in my trunk and use the water occasionally when there is a boil-over but never in my own car! Enough said?
Just my 3 cents worth on the subject!
Good Day Everyone!
I suggest you remove the radiator and take it to a qualified radiator repair shop. This is your only cost effective solution to end up with the best result. Oh...and keep the 4# cap! You bought the sealed system after careful consideration so trust yourself. Use it. Good luck with the repair.
I take issue with those who say throw the 4# cap away.
I use a sealed system with a 4# cap on two of my cars I tour with. The first and longest installed system in my Phaeton has over 96,000 miles on the sealed system. (Third water pump though...bearings wore out!) I have not had problems with leaks in the radiators, water pumps or head gaskets. I do keep the heads torqued to 55#, use a leakless pump built by James Rupert and the sealed radiators were built by Brassworks. I often drive an entire season without the need to add water. This car will run the freeways at 65 mph in overdrive all day long no matter the hills or the temps if pressed to. (Not fun though!)
The second system recently installed and being tested with a Roof overhead valve head and an air conditioner is not working so well. The system is not leaking but it does not have enough capacity to remove all the extra heat from the souped up engine and the extra needs of the AC. So I need a bigger radiator but it will still be a sealed system. I expect it will also work flawlessly when sized correctly. If I tried to cool this with an open system, it just would not work.
From my experience, if the sealed systems are installed correctly and all the components are in good condition, they work without issue. I have also installed six additional sealed 4# systems on customer's cars who needed more capacity than the stock system could provide. These people like to drive fast and a stock system would not provide enough cooling.
Now that said, I have a stock open system in my '28 pickup that I drive 500 miles or less a year and not much over 55 mph. This open stock system works too! I have worked on many customer's stock cooling systems and find when everything is well maintained there are not issues.
If you drive your Model A like it was designed to be driven, a well maintained stock open system is all you need. If you drive faster, load your motor with non-stock systems or don't want to add water all the time you may need the extra capacity a pressurized system provides.
I believe if one is to fairly and wisely comment on the use of a pressurized system in a Model A, one should have enough experience with both stock systems and pressurized systems to know when a sealed and slightly pressurized system is the right choice. I admit I am a bit sensitive to the negative comments I hear and read about sealed systems. I often feel the need to reply to the "That's just stupid" or similar comments I get when I have my hood up. I try to be polite but it is getting more difficult as the source of the comment often ignores the fact that I am standing right there. I wasn't raised to do that or to take that! So, am I biased and sensitive? Yes!
I often respond to that type of comment by telling a little story and it goes something like this: I am usually close to the last car in the line of cars when we participate in Club tours and I always stop to help those having trouble. To help all the touring people, I carry lots of spare parts and two jugs of water in my trunk and use the water occasionally when there is a boil-over but never in my own car! Enough said?
Just my 3 cents worth on the subject!
Good Day Everyone!
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Joe K
Well-known member
Um. The reason for pressurized systems in modern cars is to raise the combustion cylinder temperature and achieve measurably greater gas mileage. Also to provide amenity like effective cabin heat - but that is an "after advantage."
As far as heat transfer goes, in a non-pressure system, heat transfer would be less. A higher radiator temperature will cause a greater delta T with the air and greater heat flow in proportion to the delta Ts.
A pressurized system might be of advantage if you're running very close to saturation temperature (i.e. 212) and you want to prevent cavitation in your pump (its called "net positive suction head" NPSH for pumps) where pulling a vacuum at the eye of the pump cuts severely into flow.
That said, there is no reason NOT to stay pressurized since you're already there - assuming the radiator was designed for it.
This radiator may have been an "adaptation." As in no rolled seam at the upper connection juncture?
Joe K
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.
As far as heat transfer goes, in a non-pressure system, heat transfer would be less. A higher radiator temperature will cause a greater delta T with the air and greater heat flow in proportion to the delta Ts.
A pressurized system might be of advantage if you're running very close to saturation temperature (i.e. 212) and you want to prevent cavitation in your pump (its called "net positive suction head" NPSH for pumps) where pulling a vacuum at the eye of the pump cuts severely into flow.
That said, there is no reason NOT to stay pressurized since you're already there - assuming the radiator was designed for it.
This radiator may have been an "adaptation." As in no rolled seam at the upper connection juncture?
Joe K
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.
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Dave in MN
Well-known member
Joe K
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.[/QUOTE]
Now that's good humor! I did not see that until you pointed it out.
I half expected someone to come back with "That's just stupid" and I would have seen the humor in that as well.
Thanks for commenting. I'm smiling.
Dave
I like the part about one "getting his hood up!." Very apropos.[/QUOTE]
Now that's good humor! I did not see that until you pointed it out.
I half expected someone to come back with "That's just stupid" and I would have seen the humor in that as well.
Thanks for commenting. I'm smiling.
Dave
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
My understanding, please correct me if wrong.
What I do not understand is that a pressurized system is in modern cars so they can run hotter, more efficiently. Todays cars have materials that are able to work at the hotter temps.
Model As were not built to run that hot. You run up to 212, you run the risk of hurting the motor. Cylinder wall oil flash over, metal parts not spec'd to hotter temps, etc.
A pressurized system does not cool better and antifreeze does not cool better than water. They only allow you to run hotter before boiling.
I consider a boil over, steaming, water loss, coolant boiling @ 212 - as something wrong with the cooling system. Kinda an early warning something needs fixing ASAP.
What I do not understand is that a pressurized system is in modern cars so they can run hotter, more efficiently. Todays cars have materials that are able to work at the hotter temps.
Model As were not built to run that hot. You run up to 212, you run the risk of hurting the motor. Cylinder wall oil flash over, metal parts not spec'd to hotter temps, etc.
A pressurized system does not cool better and antifreeze does not cool better than water. They only allow you to run hotter before boiling.
I consider a boil over, steaming, water loss, coolant boiling @ 212 - as something wrong with the cooling system. Kinda an early warning something needs fixing ASAP.
Joe K
Well-known member
There is not a lot of difference engineering wise between today's motors at 15psi/249F and the Model A at 0psi/212. What has changed since the Model A era is the oil. Today's oils, driven by the desired increased temperatures, have a "flatter" viscosity curve - especially so for so called "synthetic oil."
A pressurized system DOES cool better. That Delta T thing I mentioned. More heat can be transferred, or potentially a smaller radiator required for the same heat transfer.
Now heat transfer from the motor TO the coolant will be retarded a bit with increased coolant temperature - that delta T thing again. So your motor will run EVEN HOTTER than the increased temperature of the coolant might suggest. But again - those oils.
As to the efficacy of pressurizing, it has plus and minus. Plus on efficiency, life of the motor (did I mention that?) and conservation of coolant. Minus on lubrication.
Plus - my comment on "Thats Just Stupid." What is stupid is making a statement like that without consideration of listener.
I'm a kind of a "keep it original" sort of guy. I get my jollies from the originality of the Model A car and its "uniqueness." I hold it as a kind of a comparison and look back to see how far we've come - and a reminder of how brutal and hard it really was with 500 mile oil changes and maybe 20K miles tops on a set of bias ply tires. (I remember myself how we thought tires were SOOO improved because then they could be driven 40K maybe 45K miles. And you changed your shocks at every other tire change - 80K.)
Others have a different set of standards. They like to drive the car for PLEASURE - and they do things like hydraulic brakes, shortening the pitman arm, speed upgrades, overdrives, and a whole parcel of so called "improvements" to the car. When they're done is it still a Model A?
I make a living currently restoring old houses. Many times a client consults with me about this improvement or that improvement. One of my standard comments to these queries are "Yunno they're only original once." And another is "You can upgrade the colonial charm right out of this house if you're not careful." Part of what makes historic houses historic is the fact that they're not like modern houses: winder staircases, short doors, wavy glass, and low ceilings. Remove all this and you remove the charm - in my estimation.
But there is the engineering side of me who appreciates running water, toilets that work, cellars that are full height and dry, and energy efficiency.
So like the Model A - I see both sides here too.
And I don't blurt out - "That's just stupid." Because for the hearer - it might not be.
Joe K