Power top motor

[jeffstuarts]

Hello All,
I am very new here and this is my first post. I am working on a 41 Lincoln with an electric power top. The motor I have has 4 cloth covered leads, 3 seem to be a light color and 1 black. The black and 1 of the other leads come from each of the brushes. The other 2 are from the coils (not sure if this is the right name for these) on the side. The original wiring harness in the car has only 3 leads- 1 blac and 2 natutral. I am using a 6 volt battery and want to test the motor on the bench and need to know which lead goes to positive and which to attach to the negative. I really don't know enough about motors and need help to learn. I thank you for anything you can teach me.
Jeff

 

[hueyhoolihan]

when i have questions like this, i ask google questions like this: "what do the four wires on a vintage automobile electric motor do".

and get an AI answer like this, which is a good starting point:

"On a vintage automobile starter motor, four wires typically indicate a series-wound motor, which are designed to be reversible. These motors often have two wires for the armature and two for the field windings. Reversing the connections to either the armature or field windings will reverse the motor's direction. In a starter motor, the two field windings are in series with the armature.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Two Armature Wires:

These wires connect to the armature, which is the rotating part of the motor that converts electrical energy into mechanical energy.
Two Field Wires:
These wires connect to the field windings, which create the magnetic field that interacts with the armature to produce torque.

Reversibility:

Reversing the connections to either the armature or field windings will reverse the motor's direction of rotation.

Series-Wound Design:

In a series-wound motor, the armature current also flows through the field winding, which is a high-current winding in series with the armature.".

of course AI's responses may or may not be accurate depending on a number of factors, not the least of which are how the question is phrased and the wording, etc.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

Yes this wiring diagram is for a 53' Mercury, but it should be close enough, to get the answers you are looking for. It shows both a 3 wire motor and a 4 wire motor. Hope it helps.

 

[petehoovie]

Yes this wiring diagram is for a 53' Mercury, but it should be close enough, to get the answers you are looking for. It shows both a 3 wire motor and a 4 wire motor. Hope it helps.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

petehoovie - thank you

 

[jeffstuarts]

Merc Cruzer, petehoovie, & hueyhoulihan,
Thank you all for your responses. I did find and older thread started by Merc Cruzer showing exactly what we have including how to bench test the motor. The color schematic here is very helpful. The original moors were missing from the Lincoln assembly and found a used Mercury 4 wire motor to replace one of them. When we tested it on the bench we had it hooked up all wrong as per the older thread. Once we get the motor running on the bench we will have to figure out how to connect the 3 wire harness to the 4 wire motor. That will come later.
Jeff

 

[jeffstuarts]

So we hooked up the motor as per the instructions by Frank Miller in the old (June 2017) thread and the motor ran perfectly in both directions except- the motor stalled after a few seconds and a circuit breaker we installed blew. It seems that there is play in the armature and it moves to the back bushing and causes it to stop. When we held the armature shaft with a finger away from the back, it ran as it should-didn't stall. Do we need to open the motor and put additional washers on the end of the shaft to keep it from hitting the bushing? Any thoughts?
Jeff

 

[TerryOH]

I would only guess you will have to disassemble somewhat. Suggest you start on the end of the motor without brushes. Disturbing the brushes will result in a hard time getting them back in place to reassemble. Often spring washers or thin steel washers are used to space the armature, you can find some of these at your local hardware store.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

Actually I have had my convertible top motor, window motors and power seat motors all apart and it isn't really that bad. Be patient and you will prevail. Pay close attention during disassembly. You are correct, that a spring washer on the end of the armature shaft will proubably do the trick. It will give you the opportunity to clean the end of the armature when the brushes come in contact with it. My little screw drive trice, is to push the brushes back as far as they will go, then put a small screwdrivers in the holes to hold them in place, while you reinstall the armature. Top motors are getting hard to find, and these days it requires that you service them yourself.

 

[jeffstuarts]

Thanks for your advice! Actually getting the motor back together was very easy. I pushed the brushes as far in as I coukld with a small scfrew driver then inserted a thin wire in front of both to hold them back running the wire up the side of the case. When the motor was in place I just pulled the wires out and the brushes snapped onto the armature. Many later motors have a hole underneath that the wire can be pulled through. Using a spring washer sounds like the way to go or maybe a cone shaped washer where only a very small area touches the armature(?).
Jeff

 

[Merc Cruzer]

Sounds like a plan and that you have it under control. As to which one to use, I would guess it would be a matter of which one is available. I think the spring washer was the original solution, since it gave the armature a "controlled" amount of play in the housing.

 

[jeffstuarts]

Thanks again for all your help. I got the wiring sorted. I essentially created a 3 wire motor by grounding the positive brush wire to the motor case and then to a good ground as posted in the older thread. The other 3 wires were attached to the appropriate wires in the original Lincoln wiring harness. Works perfectly. Now I just need to find a second motor for the other side. If anyone has a lead, it would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff

 

[Merc Cruzer]

Jeff,

Glad to hear you got it sorted out. Interesting, that your Lincoln has two top motors, My 53' Merc has a single motor and cables going out each end to the two screw jacks.

 

[jeffstuarts]

I'll bet that with a single motor and 2 cables, it solved the problem of 2 motors running at different speeds, jamming the mechanism. The transmissions are identical except that they are mirror images of each other with the same mounting for the motors on both sides. From what I have seen, this is the same configuration used on the 41 Ford although the Ford connection is different and it is a 4 wire motor.
Jeff

 

[Merc Cruzer]

You are correct and very interesting. Would it be possible to covert yours to a single motor with cables?

 

[Bruce of MN]

It makes you wonder what life the Ford engineers thought might apply to this mechanism? I have no idea what current top motor systems are like.

 

[jeffstuarts]

You are correct and very interesting. Would it be possible to covert yours to a single motor with cables?

After I saw your photos, I thought about that. The problem is, where would you find all the parts needed? Or could they be fabricated from speedometer cables, etc. A 6 volt motor that could run in both directions might not be too hard to find. I'm thinking about it!

 

[jeffstuarts]

It makes you wonder what life the Ford engineers thought might apply to this mechanism? I have no idea what current top motor systems are like.

I am very inexperienced with Ford but I do know that later in the 50's power tops were hydraulic and not screw type electric although the pumps were run by electric motors. I have no clue about modern tops but when I look online the modern ones all show electric motors.

 

[Merc Cruzer]

I am not sure just what your configuration looks like, but this is what you would need from a 53' Ford or Mercury. I have also included a picture showing the deference in cable size, between a speedometer cable and a convertible top cable.

If you could make it work, with a bit of searching, I would guess it would be possible.

Simplicity would seem to dictate that you go with hydraulics, since the pumps, hoses and rams, would be readily available, But the one drawback, would be the pumps would most likely be 12 volt.

 

[petehoovie]

I am not sure just what your configuration looks like, but this is what you would need from a 53' Ford or Mercury. I have also included a picture showing the deference in cable size, between a speedometer cable and a convertible top cable.

If you could make it work, with a bit of searching, I would guess it would be possible.

Simplicity would seem to dictate that you go with hydraulics, since the pumps, hoses and rams, would be readily available, But the one drawback, would be the pumps would most likely be 12 volt.