Please help me start my car

Tom in SW VA

Well-known member
My 1928 Model A Ford roadster will not start. It turns over but will not fire.
I have done the following:
1. Installed a new condenser
2. Timed the engine with NuRex
3. Checked and have fuel
4. Carb has been recently rebuilt
5. Have spark at the points and have spark in the clear distributor cap
6. Battery shows full charge; however starter is slow

Please help

I live in very rural Virginia. I belong to MARC and MAFCA. Have reached out to two MARC clubs which I belong. No response

Any help will be appreciated
 
Two things this I see right from the get go:

5. Have spark at the points and have spark in the clear distributor cap: IS the spark getting to the plugs? Pull one off and verify while cranking. Sounds like it is grounding somewhere and not jumping the gap. What is the gap?

6. Battery shows full charge; however starter is slow: This is a bad ground on the starter to the case problem or the starter is going south and needs a rebuild.


My 2 cents worth.


Mike
 
I think the OP is referring to the Nu-Rex cam wrench tool. It has instructions on it.

It might be a good idea to pull the plugs and insure some compression on all cylinders with the thumb over the plug boss method. A person needs to know it has some compression and that timing is matched to #1 cylinder on compression stroke. Valve in block engines love to stick valves if they set too long. If compression is decent then a jumper can be clipped to the #1 distributor terminal with the other end clipped to a spark plug lying horizontally on the head to view the sparking end. A person needs to know it's sparking all the way through the plug and on the compression stroke. I've had distributor caps go bad.

If it's got spark when #1 it up on compression, a person can then insure the GAV is set properly for start and ready to deliver fuel mixture. When staring, make sure the spark is retarded so it won't kick back. I still start mine with the hand crank now and then but observe proper procedure if you do. Ford fractures are no fun.
 
Last edited:
I'm not familiar with "nurex".

I was taught the "Ford" method in the 1950's and still use it, Never had a problem with that method.

From the Ford service manual:

1. Fully retard spark lever.
2. Check gap between breaker contact points and if necessary adjust them as described on page 28.
3. Screw out timing pin located in timing gear cover (see Fig. 10) and insert opposite end of pin into opening.
4. With the starting crank turn the engine over slowly, at the same time pressing in firmly on the timing pin. When the piston reaches the end of the compression stroke the timing pin will slip into a small depression in the camshaft gear.
5. With the pin in place, remove the distributor cover and lift off rotor and distributor body.
6. Loosen cam locking screw until cam can be turned.
7. Replace rotor and turn it until the rotor arm is opposite No. 1 contact point in distributor head.
8. Withdraw rotor from cam and slightly turn the cam in a counter clockwise direction until the breaker points just start to open, then securely tighten cam locking screw.
9. Replace rotor and distributor cover.
10. Withdraw timing pin from depression in time gear and screw it back tightly into the timing gear cover.

YWMV
 
You can pull all 4 plugs and use the hand crank and watch a grounded to the head plug and see if it sparks...pulling all the plugs lets you work alone and slowly. I used the Nu Rex wrench and it is a good ballpark like if you were stuck on the side of the road. I found my engine would buck when I first hit the starter like the the spark was too far advanced...and when checking precisely with a test light and following the "Red Book" the timing was in fact off.

Of course it may not be a spark issue as you have not said the plugs are not firing...so have you simply tried starting fluid while someone else hits the starter...if it fires it is obviously fuel and not spark.
 
Guys, let me put a little backstory on this. For many years, this poster (Tom) was a College Educator and a Methodist Minister who excelled in both of those fields. This next sentence is an observation that comes from knowing him for 20+ years. He is, unfortunately, mechanically challenged on many areas on the automobiles in his collection (-which includes a Model-T, (2) Model-As, an Early V8 Ford, and a Jeepster) ...so unless it is the most simple or basic task, he can easily be overwhelmed. Please understand there is no shame associated with this level of competence however knowing when to back away is a skillset best learned. (He does not have the franchise on this BTW!)

Furthermore, suggesting that he should ask for assistance from the local Model-A Clubs is basically a wasted effort (-as are many local chapters) because these 'club members' have seemingly become members in a social club where members rarely drive and/or work on their Model-As and are seemingly more interested in going eat at a restaurant once a month, or drive to an ice cream shop in their modern car where they can fellowship with other 'club members'. Therefore I have learned this is some of the worst advice we can give someone here is to suggest a local club help them fix something.


Respectfully, I realize that most of your advice is meant with good intentions however most don't know all of the facts pertaining to Tom's vehicle, -and as such IMO you are leading him down a path that only exacerbates the problem instead of helping him. Tom's Roadster left my shop nearly 2 years ago after a lengthy re-restoration on his vehicle after it was totaled in a crash. When it left my shop, the vehicle was running & driving (-which included starting) fine. Tom's vehicle is still awaiting a few backordered parts to make it a finished restoration, and as such it likely has not been driven much, -if any during that time from then until now. Because of that backstory, it is unlikely the Condenser became faulty just because it was setting in a climate controlled environment. Likely the Timing did not need to be adjusted either, -however this was some of the advice he received when he was instructed on how to correct the starting issue.

The comment about having Fuel is often misleading as to whether it is all fresh, or old stale Gasoline. We have found stale Gasoline (-often older than 60-90 days) can cause a Model-A to either not start, -or to start but barely run. A rebuilt Carburetor can mean many things too. Dried Gasoline in a new rebuild can plug passages or cause the Float Valve to stick where the Fuel cannot adequately fill the Bowl.

I will also say that my experiences may be a little different than others however just because there is spark showing at the Points, -or at the Rotor arcing to the Distributor Body does not indicate whether the gap on the Points is sufficient to create a strong enough spark across the electrode to create combustion. Gas-fouled Spark Plugs will provide a ground path where the spark energy has somewhere to be diverted however the Engine often times will not start under these conditions.

And finally, how has it been determined the Battery is fully charged? Is one of the Battery terminals loose at the post where proper amperage cannot be carried to the Starter? Is the Terminal(s) corroded?? Remember, a shorted cell can still fool a meter as it is not dropping the total voltage of the Battery yet it is affecting the total cranking amperage that it can deliver. This effectively could cause a slow-spinning Starter.

Although what I am about to say will come across as biased based on my business, something does need to be understood by many here and on social media. From the time when Model-As were new, the Ford authorized Agency that sold the Model-A was required to have a Service Department to repair that Model-A. Likely a larger majority of Model-A owners back in the 1930s did not have the skillset to capably work on their Model-A. For that reason alone, there were Shops that served those owners. During the 1940s & 50s, those Shops were rarely utilized for making Model-A repairs due to the Model-A's age and value. At that point it was predominantly the shadetree mechanic that kept some of them going. Then, during the late 50s -70s when popularity of the Model-A ownership was happening, and local Clubs were a thing, the Model-A restoration & repair was performed by a skilled owner. I would guess that 85%-90% of the Model-A Club members were doing their own restoration work, ...and approximately 10%-15% hired their work done, -or they purchased a restored one to use. Today those numbers are seemingly reversed where only 10%-15% have the ability and the skillset to capably work on their Model-A.

Therefore, for the smaller percentage who do have the skillset that are incorrectly assuming anyone can work on these is not prudent for several reasons. We live in a different age today, and what worked back then does not always work best for today's environment. Again, as mentioned above, there is not any reason for shame to recommend a Model-A Owner who might be struggling with an issue to seek someone who can capably make the repairs for that owner before the Owner wastes a lot of their time & $$ and ultimately loses interest. ;) (We can debate this in a separate thread if so desired.)
 
(We can debate this in a separate thread if so desired.)

Oh let's do!
You hit a number of subjects worthy of discussion, but here they don't help Tom get his car started.

Tom: Providing some additional information would help others narrow down the potential causes.

When did you drive it last? Did it run ok then?
Has it run since any of the items on your list have been done?
How long has it been since those were done?
What does "starter is slow" mean to you?

If it was running fine before, then as Brent mentions the timing, condenser and even the point gap shouldn't have changed significantly.

Tends to indicate a fuel issue (Old gas or Carb issue) or not enough oomph to get it started (bad battery or ground).

Your background as described by Brent indicates you are fully capable of analytical thinking and that is just as important as mechanical aptitude when troubleshooting.

I encourage you to take it as far as you can before giving up and calling a pro. Just do it logically.
 
Oh let's do!
You hit a number of subjects worthy of discussion, but here they don't help Tom get his car started.

Ok, since you likely have some topics you think are debatable in a discussion, then how about starting the new thread and I'll be along shortly. :D


The irony of this is that Tom has posted here and also on social media over the past week or so regarding this issue, ...and you are the first one that I know of that is asking for more information. Others have given their opinion(s) on what it likely is, ...which is why he has listed all the things he has already done. As far as "taking it as far as he can", ...maybe he has already done that when he first started asking questions for advice on Social Media. And, -after that advice apparently hasn't worked, he reached out to local clubs to come help and got no responses. Next he came here. If it doesn't get resolved here, where should he go next?? :rolleyes::confused:
 
Tom, can you please be more specific as to where in South-West Virginia you live. I may be able to drive to your house to help you in person. You can send me a personal message if you do not want to broadcast your specific location.
 
Guys, let me put a little backstory on this. For many years, this poster (Tom) was a College Educator and a Methodist Minister who excelled in both of those fields. This next sentence is an observation that comes from knowing him for 20+ years. He is, unfortunately, mechanically challenged on many areas on the automobiles in his collection (-which includes a Model-T, (2) Model-As, an Early V8 Ford, and a Jeepster) ...so unless it is the most simple or basic task, he can easily be overwhelmed. Please understand there is no shame associated with this level of competence however knowing when to back away is a skillset best learned. (He does not have the franchise on this BTW!)

Furthermore, suggesting that he should ask for assistance from the local Model-A Clubs is basically a wasted effort (-as are many local chapters) because these 'club members' have seemingly become members in a social club where members rarely drive and/or work on their Model-As and are seemingly more interested in going eat at a restaurant once a month, or drive to an ice cream shop in their modern car where they can fellowship with other 'club members'. Therefore I have learned this is some of the worst advice we can give someone here is to suggest a local club help them fix something.


Respectfully, I realize that most of your advice is meant with good intentions however most don't know all of the facts pertaining to Tom's vehicle, -and as such IMO you are leading him down a path that only exacerbates the problem instead of helping him. Tom's Roadster left my shop nearly 2 years ago after a lengthy re-restoration on his vehicle after it was totaled in a crash. When it left my shop, the vehicle was running & driving (-which included starting) fine. Tom's vehicle is still awaiting a few backordered parts to make it a finished restoration, and as such it likely has not been driven much, -if any during that time from then until now. Because of that backstory, it is unlikely the Condenser became faulty just because it was setting in a climate controlled environment. Likely the Timing did not need to be adjusted either, -however this was some of the advice he received when he was instructed on how to correct the starting issue.

The comment about having Fuel is often misleading as to whether it is all fresh, or old stale Gasoline. We have found stale Gasoline (-often older than 60-90 days) can cause a Model-A to either not start, -or to start but barely run. A rebuilt Carburetor can mean many things too. Dried Gasoline in a new rebuild can plug passages or cause the Float Valve to stick where the Fuel cannot adequately fill the Bowl.

I will also say that my experiences may be a little different than others however just because there is spark showing at the Points, -or at the Rotor arcing to the Distributor Body does not indicate whether the gap on the Points is sufficient to create a strong enough spark across the electrode to create combustion. Gas-fouled Spark Plugs will provide a ground path where the spark energy has somewhere to be diverted however the Engine often times will not start under these conditions.

And finally, how has it been determined the Battery is fully charged? Is one of the Battery terminals loose at the post where proper amperage cannot be carried to the Starter? Is the Terminal(s) corroded?? Remember, a shorted cell can still fool a meter as it is not dropping the total voltage of the Battery yet it is affecting the total cranking amperage that it can deliver. This effectively could cause a slow-spinning Starter.

Although what I am about to say will come across as biased based on my business, something does need to be understood by many here and on social media. From the time when Model-As were new, the Ford authorized Agency that sold the Model-A was required to have a Service Department to repair that Model-A. Likely a larger majority of Model-A owners back in the 1930s did not have the skillset to capably work on their Model-A. For that reason alone, there were Shops that served those owners. During the 1940s & 50s, those Shops were rarely utilized for making Model-A repairs due to the Model-A's age and value. At that point it was predominantly the shadetree mechanic that kept some of them going. Then, during the late 50s -70s when popularity of the Model-A ownership was happening, and local Clubs were a thing, the Model-A restoration & repair was performed by a skilled owner. I would guess that 85%-90% of the Model-A Club members were doing their own restoration work, ...and approximately 10%-15% hired their work done, -or they purchased a restored one to use. Today those numbers are seemingly reversed where only 10%-15% have the ability and the skillset to capably work on their Model-A.

Therefore, for the smaller percentage who do have the skillset that are incorrectly assuming anyone can work on these is not prudent for several reasons. We live in a different age today, and what worked back then does not always work best for today's environment. Again, as mentioned above, there is not any reason for shame to recommend a Model-A Owner who might be struggling with an issue to seek someone who can capably make the repairs for that owner before the Owner wastes a lot of their time & $$ and ultimately loses interest. ;) (We can debate this in a separate thread if so desired.)

Not wanting to start another thread, but I totally agree with you Brent.
We've all seen someone post on social media something vague like " my car won't start" and get responses from being a new battery to needing a complete overhaul.
I am mechanically inclined, but have no problem paying for a Professional when I feel I'm out of my depth or not having the time.
But that's just me.
 
Hey Tom, a couple things that I would check anyway is the wiring behind the dash, I've found these connections can cause all kinds of strange problems. Second is the ignition switch wire going to the distributor. Also Check your terminal post in the box...are they tight? Do you have a fuse holder on the starter? Check that fuse real close. Last....I would swap the clear cap for test purposes.
Wick
 
I generally don't worry about a person's mechanical capability on a site like this. To me it's just a question asked and answered by folks that understand the basic functions as interpreted by the question.

People can surprise you at times by how they adapt to problems. I hope the OP can adapt but they don't need to be intimidated by it and they certainly don't need discouraging comments. If they can do it, then that's great but if they can't, they can find someone else to help or hire a shop to do it. This is a forum for such questions and I encourage folks to ask. To do otherwise defeats the purpose of the forum.
 
I generally don't worry about a person's mechanical capability on a site like this. To me it's just a question asked and answered by folks that understand the basic functions as interpreted by the question.


Kerby, I agree however I think things have changed drastically with abilities and the environment we operated these cars in today. Using Tom as an example, over the last 20-ish years I have probably averaged being in Tom's shop at least once a year. His 'shop' is phenomenal in that he built it in his sub-division to look exactly like a full-sized two-story home from the street however the entire downstairs of this house is open and will easily park 6 vehicles inside with plenty of room to spare. What Tom's 'garage' lacks is large tool boxes, or welders, or torches, or presses, or diagnostic equipment simply because for Tom, these would be there for decoration only. Again, Tom is a very educated man that has common sense in a world where that attribute ain't all that common. In his defense, mechanical aptitude might have been something he possessed 40-50 years ago however it is a skillset that he has rarely used in the years I have known him. FWIW, when we restored the first Model-A for him, he actually came down almost every Tuesday to assist or watch the guys do the restoration work on his Fordor. So the desire is there for many just like him however as we age in the society we live in, still having the motor skills and the generalized skillset to do many tasks related to Model-A maintenance and upkeep have passed us by. So for many under similar circumstances as Tom, just because the desire was there for him to do the troubleshooting and repairs does not mean the outcome will be successful. People have given him all kinds of random mis-advice that likely has caused more stress than a positive one, and here he is two weeks later with a bigger mess on his hands than when he started on it.
 
I had a problem with the base of distributor to where the cable screwed in. It was actually grounding only at the screw end point. Ended up ordering a new cable and presto! Another problem occurred with the new switch, had to insulate the back of switch. Would work when dash was loose dangling but wouldn’t work when screwed up to tank.
 
Back when the Model As were new, The world still had a high percentage of folks from agrarian culture. Not so much in the common era. My family still owns the farm that I grew up on but we now lease it out to folks that still make their living that way. Farm folks had to learn how to maintain and repair their own equipment to make ends meet. Most families back in the day were large. The kids grew up learning from their Pop and other experienced relatives how to do things to get by. The modern era is completely changed in that respect. Automobiles require both electronic equipment as well as tools plus an education on how it all works or they just have to take the car to someone who does. Families are smaller now and kids don't get the school of hard knocks training that us older folks did. Common Sense is no longer common. Social Media is as misleading as it is informative so there are more clueless people than ever but it is what it is. They need to learn from somebody if they want to know how to fix things. I think we all know and even may have a relative in the same boat as the OP. I help them when I can but I certainly don't do work for them for free unless they are related or a very good friend. I have too much left in my bucket list to do that so I know where this is coming from.
 
If you take your Model A to the Ford dealer they will not know how to fix it because they cannot find where to plug in the fault analyzer. On the other hand, I cannot fix my modern pickup without the fault analyzer.
 
Owning an antique auto, or any antique machine is a tricky thing. When they are working correctly life is good. When they break down a person can't take it to the local dealer for repair. There are repair shops but they are getting mighty rare. Most of us learned from family members, military, etc. back when we were youngsters. Some just never had the opportunity, some like my now passed away uncle couldn't even operate a claw hammer. I feel that's why these car clubs are very important. I read all the suggestions from folks trying to help get someone's car back on the road. Huge amount of good info, but pretty tough to trouble shoot from the internet looking at a screen. Some of the video's are super helpful, some are pretty sketchy and eventually lead to more problems down the road. Even tougher to help a person with not a lot of mechanical knowledge/ability/resources. Back to my other statement, car clubs are important.
I am interested to see how this "AI" is going to work out. It'll either make a good troubleshooting tool, or just make us dummer. Well, I'm outa gas my rant is over.
 
My 1928 Model A Ford roadster will not start. It turns over but will not fire.
I have done the following:
1. Installed a new condenser
2. Timed the engine with NuRex
3. Checked and have fuel
4. Carb has been recently rebuilt
5. Have spark at the points and have spark in the clear distributor cap
6. Battery shows full charge; however starter is slow

Please help

I live in very rural Virginia. I belong to MARC and MAFCA. Have reached out to two MARC clubs which I belong. No response

Any help will be appreciated

Any update on your cars starting issue ? Don’t blame you for not posting ! Maybe this thread should die and go away ? And here I am contributing to this thread living on ;-(
 
Back
Top