Patch Panels

[bobmc]

Wow, I never expected that many responses. Although the post took a detour from the original question, I really enjoyed reading all the responces. I didn't mention it in the original post but I am trying to restore a 30 coupe that has been in the family since the early 1960's.

It would be nice if I had the talant to do the sheet metal work my self, but It would be easer for me to do a brain transplant. Being a plumber I don't think they would let me in the operating room. Looking at the pic's that are in this post you guys must have hours if not days working on your cars patch panels. As explained above I don't have the talent to do that so I needed to farm that process out. When paying by the hour to repair metal and patch panels are around $50.00 a pair he can not make one for that amount.
We have about 20 hours in the metal work as of today, and still need to replace the rear quarters on both sides. (havent found anything close to what the car's original beads look like) and remove the dents from the deck lid.
Then the project of finding someone to apply the bondo and primer. There wont be much of that, this guy is amazing. If I can figure out how to attach pics i will.

Don't know if it is realistic or not, but still shooting for a July 4th 2011 completion. Hopefully the assembly will go smoth.

Thanks for all your responces.
Happy holidays to all
bob

 

[Mitch]

Same here with the 1930 family coupe. Here's some photos of the patch panels I used. I did not have any problem matching the beads. Maybe your beads got "bondo-ed up" or something by previous owner.

And by the way, I bought a tig welder, practiced welding for a day or so, and have never done a piece of metal work on a car before this Model A. Now metal shaping with hammers takes a lot of practice and experience, but can be learned.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hi Guys; just thought I might add 2 cents worth of information to those of you who want to weld sheet metal with a MIG welder and find problems working the repaired panel and hammering the welds... they do get hard. The next time you stop by your local "Good Quality" welding supply shop, have them check on a small roll of '70 - S2' mig wire; most of them will tell you that they do not make that grade, but trust me it's available. This wire is vastly softer than S6, will not work harden nearly as fast/hard as S6, and you will be amazed at the finish quality of this stuff across a panel - just don't cuss me out if there is a lot of bird nesting in the welder when this will not push quite as well as the harder S6 wire most of us are always using to weld frames or farm tools. One last quick tip for this wire - if you do find feed problems, try adjusting your ESO - electrical stick out / distance of the tip with the wire exposed, to the surface you are attempting to weld; you might wish to back it away slightly, but you will then have to adjust amps to match the new distance. This wire also works great for TIG, but is much harder to straighten in long lengths. Good luck to all - regards, Steve

Hey Steve, after reading this I posed your comment regarding the S2 vs S6 to some professional metalshaping gurus that I know personally, (and have attended workshops with over the years where I know they know what they are talking about) and they say that this simply is not the case.

Now I will say that I am pretty sure it was Wray Schelin that told me the same thing several years ago that it was silicone content that created the weld hardness however it appears that several people from different e-mails and sources are telling me it is the time of the weld's "cool down" that determines the weld's ability to be planished more easily, --or not. May I ask you to elaborate on why or how you know the S2 is more easily planished than the S6?

Also, I know that one of the above Posters has attended a Fay Butler class recently where Fay is big on teaching "theory" on why something is done. Maybe he knows (--or can ask Fay) and will chime in.

.

 

[RockHillWill]

I am a relative novice to the technical side of this discussion, but am willing to share what I have learned from also attending several metal shaping seminars and knowledgeable restorers.

My extended experience in race car sheet metal gives me the courage to say flat out that welding with a MIG welder without any planishing what so ever will almost certainly result in a crack occurring right next to the weld not on it. It is my unsubstantiated opinion that the rapid increase and decrease in the temperature of the weld that a MIG weld provides (as shown by a narrow ‘Heat Affected Zone’) will result in a more brittle joint. This can be minimized by hammer planishing as you go along before the weld cools.

As for TIG welding, it has been my experience that most experienced TIG welders as well as the newer HENROB style welders prefer the ER70S-2 filler wire. This wire has three deoxidizers (Zirconium, Titanium and Aluminum) that makes it suitable for welding over normal rust and mill scale. A little research shows that this filler rod has a yield strength of 58,000 psi, Tensile strength of 70,000 psi and a 22% elongation factor.

My personal preference for the work I do on old car restorations is to TIG weld using a ER70S-6 filler rod. It is very similar to the ER70S-2 with the addition of Manganese and Silicon. It has been shown to me that this addition of Silicone provides a more stable weld puddle chemistry that results in a more fluid and smooth bead, minimizing any post weld grinding. This addition of the Silicone ‘floats’ more impurities to the top of the weld and often leaves a glassy residue that needs to be removed before paint preparation. It has been my experience that this has provided a stronger weld in the older age hardened metal that I encounter as part of my work. The down side is that due to the glassy residue, it is not good for welds with multiple passes. Use the ER70S-2 for those welds. This ER70S-6 filler rod has a yield strength of 61,600 psi, Tensile strength of 77,600 psi and a 31% elongation factor.

I provided the psi information to show why I prefer the ER70S-6 rod for working on the sheet metal welding work that I do. Not only does it have both higher yield and tensile strength, the higher elongation factor would seem to make it more pliable for planishing without sacrificing strength or ductility.

These are just my personal observations and surely are not written in stone. I am open to dialog and discussions as I always learn something from that.

 

[d.j. moordigian]

Kevin and I have talked about this for over a year, we both like s6 in .030 (hope I'm
correct) for TIG on thin stuff. Just checked the MIG machine to make sure what I
was using when I TIG , it's...S3.... Does this help cloud the issue? The silicon looks
ok compared to s6. Thoughts?

Dudley

 

[RockHillWill]

The S3 wire has about 20% less silicone than either the S2 or the S6, and the elongation factor is actually closer to the s6 which in my opinion is good. For common new cold rolled sheet it should work fine and would probably be usefull for welding the older sheet metal also. This is all pretty much 'nit-picking' if you are using a tig welder and hammer welding and or planishing the welds.

 

[d.j. moordigian]

Will,

I've been stealing wire from the guys next door( from the wire welder) for 25 years, it
hammers and finishes well. Thought it was s6, till today. No complaints, no failed welds,
no nit-picking, unless somebody else has something new.

Dudley

 

[RockHillWill]

Can't complain about the price, huh? LOL. I agree, that if it is and has been working, keep up the good work.

 

[Mitch]

Don,

Are you refering to the molding? I think I had to put a slight convex curve to the molding at the bottom to match the original.