Parts Rant!

[ericr]

Unfortunately, the ones that DO have items made have not found this to be true.

Now contrary to what people may believe, the majority of Model-A hobbyists just will not spend the extra money for a quality manufactured item. Bill Stipe's shocks are a great example of top-notch US quality, ....however he is on his last run because folks complain about the cost. Tom Rootlieb stopped production on the good 1931 running boards because the sales were poor on them. Folks would opt to purchase the ones made in Ohio that were made out of a thinner metal and were not correctly made. Chris Robinson made a really nice crankshaft but halted production because people would not pay the price he needed to make a profit. There are so many other quality pieces for the Model-A such as Sport/Special Coupe top mouldings, terne-finished running board trim, etc. that have dropped off the market simply because the demand for a quality item was not there, ...especially if there was a cheaper alternative available.

Based on what you are saying, a very valuable aspect of the Barn could be where members report on new quality repro parts they have recently purchased, so they rest of us could acquire them before the parts go out of production.

 

[BlueSunoco]

ericr, sometime back someone suggested a permanent thread post at the top of the page denoting 'good' quality parts and where they were bought from. Good idea.

We dabble in early generation Mustangs too, and I have to admit that 1.) those parts in repop are above and beyond in quality from Model A parts, never had any issues parts are made more to tolerance and 2.) Model A parts in 2014 are WAY better than the parts we were buying in 1971 so there has been improvement.

Also, can't blame Ford themselves they as a company can't fret over the quality of reproduction parts for something they built 85 years ago, they are busy enough keeping customers happy in 2014-2015 with all of the engineering going into modern cars,,,,, what would be the dollar margin of chasing quality control on a Model A? Exorbitant. Unprofitable. And the dollar volume would be what, maybe .015% of the total corporate cost outlay or much less?? Also, you can't argue Brand Loyalty or the like it practically does not exist today like say back in the 50's and 60's. We as Americans are ALL guilty of buying on the cheap no matter where it comes from. Wait until the Chinese break into the American market soon, with cheap priced cars and see what happens. Just around the corner.

 

[todd3131]

I realize your frustration almost every day of my life, ...and please realize when I say 'Welcome to my World' that it is not a calloused remark. Imagine having to explain this issue with a customer!! The issue is SO much deeper than you touched on though. I have preached this over & over, but please allow me to say it again. With as bad as things seem, we have it so much better than what restorers of other marques have it. Therefore, ...Be Thankful for what you do have. I am working on a 1909 Maxwell, ....and there is no such thing as reproduction parts for it. We are finding ourselves even making new gaskets!! It is projects like this that make a restorer appreciate at least some type of part is available.

On the other hand, use these set-backs to expand your mechanical skills. Often times, because of the fast pace we live in we are guilty of opening a package and installing the item without taking a moment to understand just how it works. Instead of replacing a part, look for ways & methods to actually restore the faulty item. Even if you still replace it with a reproduction item, understanding how something functions, and thinking about the methods by which you would repair it broadens your capabilities in life as a whole. It teaches you reasoning skills, brain-to-hand coordination, memorization skills, and patience which can be used in many other tasks we encounter in life. Start with the small or simple projects and work your way up to the large ones. Best wishes in the future!!

.

I thought you only restored model A's do you post photos of the other cars you work on somewhere? I share your sentiments most of the cars I work on are non fords and we have to make damn near everything, frustrating but gratifying at the same time. We are looking at a 1914 Mitchell at the moment and I don't think I will be able to get parts at the local dealer
Todd

 

[Doug in NJ]

Yes Aftermarket again stands for "Almost Fits"
The Old Tinbasher

It's not just parts for antique cars! In my experience, aftermarket parts for ANY model car, even almost-new ones, are almost always inferior in some respect to the OEM parts.

For my family's late-model drivers, I try to buy genuine OEM parts whenever possible.
Thank God for the Toyota and Subaru dealers who do discounted online sales!
Sometimes I get aftermarket, but I often regret it.

Doug

 

[FrankWest]

[FONT=&quot]Being relatively new to owning a Model A (I purchased mine in 2012) I have found a great deal of knowledge and support from guys here on the Ford Barn and quite frankly wouldn’t be where I am in the hobby today without you guys.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Having said that, I have been quite dismayed by the parts that I order from a variety of suppliers. I order most of my stuff from Snyder’s but have ordered from Mac’s, Bratton’s and Tam’s. It seems I rarely get a part out of the box that fits correctly without some type of tweaking. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I received a new horn rod and light switch spider brand new in the mail from Snyder’s and tried to put the spider on only to find out it doesn’t fit. I had to sand down the rod and file the inside of the spider. If I hadn’t done research on the Ford Barn and learned by your experiences, I would’ve had the whole thing in the truck before realizing it didn’t fit and have to take the steering column out all over again![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I also purchased a brand new wiring harness (which wasn’t too bad) and light switch body which was junk! The thing barely stays together and slips down the column, the bail comes about 1/8 of an inch below the body so it is holding nothing up. It was so bad I ended up ordering another on from another vendor who informed me that there are basically two suppliers of them one out of New York and one out of California and they both get them from overseas. I tried calling Bert’s and he doesn’t have any but wants $100 for one when he gets some in. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is a major frustration. I know these companies pay big money to license the Ford name so they can have it on their packaging and everything I get comes from Taiwan, or China or somewhere overseas. It’s amazing to me that working on an iconic American car I’m using cheap overseas parts that always need to be bent, filed, sanded, ground, cut, reshaped! It’s frustrating as a hobbyist and angers me as an American. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I love my Model A and I love working on her and have learned much from working on her. But the most important lesson I have learned is to take for granted that ANYTHING I buy will not fit and should always be bench tested first! It seems there should be some sort of Quality Control amongst these parts houses, obviously Ford doesn’t care and just sells their name to license. But these parts houses sell these parts to people without even testing to see if things fit? A great example is the spider and horn rod, BOTH from the same vendor and they both go out the door and don’t fit together. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I know they can’t possibly try every part for every vehicle but it seems that the hobbyist is getting the short end of the stick having to work on brand new parts right out of the box to get them to fit. I can’t imaging buying a part for my Jeep Wrangler and having to work on it before I put it in the vehicle because it doesn’t fit. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’ve read time and again on this forum repop = garbage and I truly get it now. Everything’s cheaply made with the fit and the quality very poor. Well that’s my rant fellas, thanks for listening and more importantly thanks for being here to help a fellow Model A enthusiast through some tough times! You are a great community of owners, mechanics and enthusiasts and the wealth of knowledge on her never ceases to amaze me.[/FONT]

I bought a magnetic oil pan plug for my model B ford oil pan.
It does not fit the thread in my oil pan? Maybe it is just tight?
Either way you would think that you could just screw it in!
How basic can you get!

 

[Mike V. Florida]

@Brent-LOL ! True-gimme a break I'm a newbie! The ignition switch I bought was the more expensive option, in fact was advertised as "Great Quality". Funny about this particular thread-one of the things I am doing is making a few safety upgrades since I am using this as a daily, and my kids are in it. Well that nice new "Ford" licensed LED taillight lamp assembly that I bought, brand new out of the package, seems to have been made by Lucas, the Price of Darkness, cause it doesn't work! So I put the 85 year old one back together, and will look into that restored switch you mentioned. Looks like we need to be on the lookout for items marked "NOS".

That only means that Ford received a royalty for use of it's name and/or part number. It has NOTHING to do with construction/quality of the part.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

It's not just parts for antique cars! In my experience, aftermarket parts for ANY model car, even almost-new ones, are almost always inferior in some respect to the OEM parts.


Doug

So very true.

 

[JOES31]

I agree most after market parts are inferior to OEM parts. I recently replaced a fuel accumulator on my restored 87 560 SL with an after market unit. The OEM was $420.00 The aftermarket part $155.00. I didn't want to wait the ten days for the OEM. Big mistake. The AF part started the car but not like the OEM. Got the OEM and the car is now very happy.

At least I had the choice.

 

[sconnors]

Talked to Don at Snyder's yesterday at length about this. He empathizes but also expresses that it's not cost effective to test the fit of every part he gets. I did suggest that for parts such as the horn rod and spider where there is a known issue and they need to be sanded that he could put a slip of paper in the box or a note in the catalog stating that before installing the part may need to be modified by sanding.
He agreed with many of the things I told him about including parts I had received and echoed the sentiments of many on here that it's an 80 year old vehicle we're working on we would shudder if we saw what they did at the factory to get parts to fit (not sure I'm in 100% agreement on the last part) and that he is a supplier and all he can do is bring this information back to the manufacturer and whether they pay it any heed or not is out of his control.

So it's a matter of people accepting the low quality and low standards of production. If enough people take the time to call the owner of the company and express their experience good AND bad with the parts they receive especially when there's a problem, the owners of these companies will have much more pressure to bear on their vendors. Again, whether that will correct the problem remains to be seen, but in my opinion just sitting back and accepting sub standard is wrong. We can't be apathetic and just ***** we have to take action and contact vendors, suppliers etc if we ever hope to get better parts for these vehicles and keep them on the road for another 80yrs.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I thought you only restored model A's do you post photos of the other cars you work on somewhere?

Todd, we do other marques beside Model-A. It's just that the A is our mainstay. Look for us on Facebook and where there are a few pictures of other marques there. Honestly, we do not post photos of the majority of the vehicles we work on (Model-A or other) simply because I don't feel there is a need to post each and every one. Just enough variety to show what our capabilities are and pique the interest of a potential customer.

So it's a matter of people accepting the low quality and low standards of production. If enough people take the time to call the owner of the company and express their experience good AND bad with the parts they receive especially when there's a problem, the owners of these companies will have much more pressure to bear on their vendors. Again, whether that will correct the problem remains to be seen, but in my opinion just sitting back and accepting sub standard is wrong. We can't be apathetic and just ***** we have to take action and contact vendors, suppliers etc if we ever hope to get better parts for these vehicles and keep them on the road for another 80yrs.

Playing Devil's Advocate with you, let's use the reproduction 1931 front fender as an example. Suppose you purchase one from your vendor and complain after you receive it about all of the issues. You demand the manufacture needs to upgrade the quality. The vendor contacts the manufactures and says if the quality is not upgraded, then I as a vendor refuse to purchase any others. The response of the manufacturer is that he cannot justify spending any additional funds to re-tool to make the quality better. Therefore in a kind way, the manufacturer tells the vendor to either accept what is available, --or do buy them at all.

So where does that leave you?? If you have nothing, ...something is at least better. Personally, I would rather see Bob continue to manufacture front fenders with issues, than to cease production totally.

Another great example, ...what do you do if you need a replacement rear axle shaft? Production has ceased on newly manufactured ones, ...and good-quality original units are getting much harder to find. When the supply of good used units dries up to the point where they are fetching a large sum, then we look to having them custom manufactured, --or we look to having them manufactured offshore at a cheaper price. Suppose nice used ones start fetching $500 a piece, and someone without a large capitol outlay goes to China and has new ones made there for $350. Naturally the off-shore manufactured unit's quality will not be as great when compared to the OE unit, but at $150 less $$ --AND the convenience of obtaining one thru a catalog, which do you feel the hobbyists will purchase? THAT is what this who thread is about and why it is what it is!!

 

[DougVieyra]

Because of this issue (poor quality of many reproduction parts), I do appreciate the fact that some of the vendors (Bert's and Bratton's come to mind) have a note on some of their parts that says something like: " The best of two available". And on some items: "USA Made" ($$$) and "Foreign Made" ($$). That gives the consumer a choice of quality level. I know that this option applies only to some items, not all. But when it is available I gladly pay the higher price for a (mostly) better made USA product, and ALWAYS take the "Best of two available", ignoring any cost difference.

- Doug Vieyra - Eureka, Calif - overcast, high of 62 degrees

 

[Y-Blockhead]

I've also notice in Snyder's and Mike's where they state "Use original if possible". That tells me a lot about a vendors honesty.

 

[ericr]

LOL we have this discussion every several months here.

On a more positive note, we should all feel fortunate that we have the internet and blogs and YouTube to publicize these mis-adventures and cures. Those of us that "restored" our cars back in the '70s and '80s had no such option, and we were flying blind on a lot of things.

 

[tiger.1000]

It's all very well saying that crap repro parts are a good excuse to hone ones engineering skills but it must be remembered that many old A's are owned by passionate enthusiasts who barely know what a spanner (wrench) looks like, never mind how to actually use one!

Furthermore many folk do not have big enough wallets to pay someone else to do the work for them.

It really is up to manufacturers and suppliers to get their respective acts together !
Mind you, having said that I think I'm "flogging a dead horse" !

 

[Y-Blockhead]

Those of us that "restored" our cars back in the '70s and '80s had no such option, and we were flying blind on a lot of things.

Wahaha, My car must have been one of the cars that was "restored back in the '70s and '80s" because some of the things done they must of been done while "flying blind on a lot of things".

But that's OK. It's my first A and I've only owned my '30 Town Sedan a couple of months now and am "correcting" some of the things that were restored back in the day as I go along.

Just replaced my bent tie rod this morning and I'll tell you the new one is much heavier than the old one... Installed 'Bronze Impregnated Teflon' seats in the tie rod and drag link ends also. Steers much better now!!

It'll never be a points car but I love the car and driving it.

 

[sconnors]

Todd, we do other marques beside Model-A. It's just that the A is our mainstay. Look for us on Facebook and where there are a few pictures of other marques there. Honestly, we do not post photos of the majority of the vehicles we work on (Model-A or other) simply because I don't feel there is a need to post each and every one. Just enough variety to show what our capabilities are and pique the interest of a potential customer.






Playing Devil's Advocate with you, let's use the reproduction 1931 front fender as an example. Suppose you purchase one from your vendor and complain after you receive it about all of the issues. You demand the manufacture needs to upgrade the quality. The vendor contacts the manufactures and says if the quality is not upgraded, then I as a vendor refuse to purchase any others. The response of the manufacturer is that he cannot justify spending any additional funds to re-tool to make the quality better. Therefore in a kind way, the manufacturer tells the vendor to either accept what is available, --or do buy them at all.

So where does that leave you?? If you have nothing, ...something is at least better. Personally, I would rather see Bob continue to manufacture front fenders with issues, than to cease production totally.

Another great example, ...what do you do if you need a replacement rear axle shaft? Production has ceased on newly manufactured ones, ...and good-quality original units are getting much harder to find. When the supply of good used units dries up to the point where they are fetching a large sum, then we look to having them custom manufactured, --or we look to having them manufactured offshore at a cheaper price. Suppose nice used ones start fetching $500 a piece, and someone without a large capitol outlay goes to China and has new ones made there for $350. Naturally the off-shore manufactured unit's quality will not be as great when compared to the OE unit, but at $150 less $$ --AND the convenience of obtaining one thru a catalog, which do you feel the hobbyists will purchase? THAT is what this who thread is about and why it is what it is!!

I disagree totally. Your point is we should shut our mouths and accept the garbage that's doled out because if we piss the manufacturers off they may cease manufacturing. That is part of what's wrong with this country. Nothing is made here, and we are satisfied with sub-standard disposable products and we'd rather run out an buy a new one than insist on quality of the original. I cite L.L. Bean and companies of that stature who while some of their items are made in the U.S.A., the ones that aren't are of high quality or they don't get Bean's business. In closing I'll share a few quotes from the beloved inventor of our machines, Henry Ford:
"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: make the best quality goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."

"Don’t find fault, find a remedy."

"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business."

"A business absolutely devoted to service will have only one worry about profits. They will be embarrassingly large."

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I disagree totally. Your point is we should shut our mouths and accept the garbage that's doled out because if we piss the manufacturers off they may cease manufacturing. That is part of what's wrong with this country. Nothing is made here, and we are satisfied with sub-standard disposable products and we'd rather run out an buy a new one than insist on quality of the original.

I cite L.L. Bean and companies of that stature who while some of their items are made in the U.S.A., the ones that aren't are of high quality or they don't get Bean's business.

Please don't get me wrong, ...I am NOT saying anyone should keep their mouths shut nor they accept "garbage". I am however saying that many do not understand many reasons why something is what it is. Just as in restoring our cars, some parts manufacturers do the best they are capable of with the resources (equipment, tooling, skill, & finances) they have. Just because you -or someone feels it should be better does not mean the manufacturer is capable of meeting your demands! The majority do the best they can do under the circumstances they have.

 

[daveymc29]

Like they guy told us about the fenders that don't fit, "you guys keep buying them." If we did stop buying them and looked more to the guy "hoarding" parts, perhaps they would make them fit.Many "original" blue prints are in the gads of Model A folks. Maybe they should find a way to duplicate them and get them to the suppliers so they had a baseline for acceptable parts? I don't know the answer, but I agree the parts we get are deplorable in many cases.

 

[mshmodela]

Unfortunately, the ones that DO have items made have not found this to be true.

Now contrary to what people may believe, the majority of Model-A hobbyists just will not spend the extra money for a quality manufactured item. Bill Stipe's shocks are a great example of top-notch US quality, ....however he is on his last run because folks complain about the cost. Tom Rootlieb stopped production on the good 1931 running boards because the sales were poor on them. Folks would opt to purchase the ones made in Ohio that were made out of a thinner metal and were not correctly made. Chris Robinson made a really nice crankshaft but halted production because people would not pay the price he needed to make a profit. There are so many other quality pieces for the Model-A such as Sport/Special Coupe top mouldings, terne-finished running board trim, etc. that have dropped off the market simply because the demand for a quality item was not there, ...especially if there was a cheaper alternative available.

Too bad to hear, I've got 4 shocks ordered from bill.. I figured was the lowest cost to keep my car with original parts as possible... Lots of old shocks out there that would cost me a little less and likely not to last give they are 83 years old...

 

[Mike V. Florida]

Too bad to hear, I've got 4 shocks ordered from bill.. I figured was the lowest cost to keep my car with original parts as possible... Lots of old shocks out there that would cost me a little less and likely not to last give they are 83 years old...

I think Bill and the shocks are a poor example, his shocks sold out and there is a waiting list for new ones. I remember that the reason they stopped making them had to do more with the loss of the machinery then sales.

Not knowing anything about machining, but I would think a repetitive method of re-manufacturing could be found using at least original cases, and covers. but as I said I don't know.

There are several threads on how to make the fenders fit properly. It seems to me that the cost to make the repros fit is less then the amount to repair originals in a lot of cases.

How many units (years) of a "perfect" fit part is needed to sell to get back a tooling investment?

Let's look at Bratton's attempt to have ammeters built. He wanted 2000 units built. Right now they get, what 8.25, lets say it takes that much to make one "perfect", $8.25 x 2000 = $16,500 If they sell for $20.00 that's 835 units before break even. How many do you think are sold each year? Even if my manufacturing price is wrong and it cost 4.00 to make each one, that still 400 units before break even, more if the parts are wholesaled out.

Complain, absolutely If there is a difference between runs of the same item then maybe something can be done.