Paint help in K.C.

Bob/Kansas City

Bob/Kansas City

Senior Member
I'm about finished with prepping my '29 Town Sedan for paint and wondered if any of the Ford Barners from the Kansas City area have any suggestions of a good shop that will paint a Model A.

I'm just getting back into the Model A hobby after being out for many years and haven't painted a car in too many years.
I no longer have a compressor big enough to power even an HVLP gun and figured that by the time I bought the equipment and necessary supplies I just as well have it painted for me. I'd hate to screw up the paint job with some on the job relearning!
The body is on the running gear and wil be trailered to a shop.
Thanks in advance for any help any local A'ers can offer.
 
LOL. once again in going to get hammered for suggesting some thing that doesnt cost $5000 dollars, a lot of the model A guys go for how much they spend on there paint jobs, its a bragging rights thing, its like if it doesnt cost half the price of the car its no good, any way back to your question, if you want a very good paint job with a warrenty go to maaco, they use excellent paint and and will do it for a reasonable price, LOL, now here comes the slams, they will tell you never have your car painted at a reasonable priced paint shop, its not good enough
 
You know what, I also agree that you should go to MAACO. Get them to give you an estimate on exactly what you expect to receive. Make sure you ask specifically what the process will be and how they will do it. I guarantee that if they do exactly what the other restoration shops do, then it won't be $299 as MAACO advertises for their Presidential or Signature paint job! On the other hand, if a Restoration Shop only has to do the same quality of paint work, and use the same quality of paint, their estimate will likely be very close to MAACO's.

Folks need to be realistic, there is a reason why things cost what they do. Not everyone wants to pay for a Steak sandwich when a Hamburger will do, ...but folks also need to realize that more time & costs are involved when preparing a Steak dinner.
 
Brent, alot of what you posted is correct, but just because it doesnt cost $5000 or more doesnt mean its a lousey job, i had (my bad, Chevy ) painted at Maaco 7 rs ago and it still shines, no fading, flacking, and your right, i didnt get the $299 paint job, mine was the $499 priced one, kind of expensive for the time, but was well below the $2000 quoted me from a streed rod shop, the paint costs the same for each shop, its how much they charge for the labor, Maaco is a high production paint shop, so they can charge less, for an excellent paint job for the average working owner who wants a good looking paint job that every one can afford Maaco or any other shop like Maaco is an excellent choice, but of course you loose the snob factor, cant say you payed several months wages to get it,
 
ford1 said:
Brent, alot of what you posted is correct, but just because it doesnt cost $5000 or more doesnt mean its a lousey job, i had (my bad, Chevy ) painted at Maaco 7 rs ago and it still shines, no fading, flacking, and your right, i didnt get the $299 paint job, mine was the $499 priced one, kind of expensive for the time, but was well below the $2000 quoted me from a streed rod shop, the paint costs the same for each shop, its how much they charge for the labor, Maaco is a high production paint shop, so they can charge less, for an excellent paint job for the average working owner who wants a good looking paint job that every one can afford Maaco or any other shop like Maaco is an excellent choice, but of course you loose the snob factor, cant say you payed several months wages to get it,
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I never said it would be a lousy job. All I said it wouldn't be the same quality. Some consumers cannot tell the difference between a hand-blocked panel vs. a DA sanded panel. If they cannot tell the difference, then it probably isn't a value for them to pay for the extra labor required for the better quality job. The same thing applies to a color-sanded and buffed finish. Some folks feel like "straight-out-of-the-gun" texture is good enough for their Model A. If that is the way they feel, then I agree that is the best for them.

Other production shops will use a coarse compound and a wool pad and proceed to "knock the top out of it" producing a shine in some 'easy to get to' areas and chatter buff-marks throughout the entire paint job. Again, if the consumer is satisfied with this (MAACO) level of quality, I say go for it! For the shop that is going to color-sand the entire finish in progressive stages to ensure the panels remain flat and then polish to a high lustre, they are not going to do it for the same price no matter what they charge for labor. As a businessman, I must hire competent employees capable of turning out work that my customers are requiring. My overhead is very near what my local "quickie Collision Shop" has too. The only way they are gonna beat me is if they hire inexperienced workers and pay them less money. Again, if not a lot is expected out of an employee, then they can get by with a cheaper wage.

What I view as a difference is the quality of materials they use vs. what we use. As a large company that does use a large quantity of paint, they have small paint companies bid for, and produce a line of paint for them that is cheaper. They probably have the ability to save $400-$500 for Paint & Materials over what I use. The difference is I use the best quality paint & materials out there. Since I use PPG, I am paying for quality that comes from latest technology. PPG does offer a cheaper line that is based on older technology and inferior in pigment quality but I (and my customer) are unwilling to compromise. The typical MAACO-type customer is wanting something to last them for a few years more and generally is not interested in higher quality craftsmanship as this is a price-driven consumer. McDonalds has made a great business out of serving cheap hamburgers. Their customers are not interested in gourmet taste but just in the cheap price. I don't expect much quality when I go to McDonalds, and because of that, I am rarely disappointed with what I receive. I stand by my initial statement that if the expectations and craftsmanship produced are to be equal between MAACO and a street rod/resto shop, then likely the price estimate from both shops will be very close too.

.,'
 
If you don't know the difference between a serious professional paint job and a cheap one, choose the cheap one. If you don't understand the difference between a Macburger and a good steakhouse steak, take your wife on your anniversary night to macdonald's. No one should pick on you for that. Same with the difference between a brain surgeon and an uneducated quack. There are many excellent paint jobs and body repairs done by amateurs, but, to be truly excellent and long-lasting, superior(costly) materials and all the requisite labor hours/dollars must be expended, whether by the professional or amateur. It doesn't take much effort to call a quality paint supplier, like PPG or DuPont and price all the needed materials: abrasives, metal etch, etching primers, surfacing primers, sealer, base coat, clear coat, catalysts, reducers, polishing supplies, cost of disposal, clean up, and government compliance. The body and paint operations on an old car are too numerous to numerate here, let alone explain. For one example on an eighty-year-old car, it has accumulated generations of dents, rust and amateur repairs over and over and over, so that a fender that came out of the stamp and die at the rate of one-a-minute will now require forty or more hours of labor at thirty to seventy-fiver dollars an hour, if savable. (Or zero dollars an hour, but it will still require the hours needed). You may want some one to paint your car for cheap labor and at the same time risk your judgement, but I won't. The cost of quality is not cheap, and I don't imagine anyone would make a paint job un-justifyably expensive. If I tried it, it would end my business and all I've worked for all my life to aquire a quality reputation. I usually lose money on paint jobs, though they consistently win national first place awards. I probabably make a lower hourly rate than the average welfarer, but I am still a professional. My profession required years of education and practice, and I still "plow back in" several hours per week continuing my education at no pay, and have done so for forty years. So I am either a very slow learner or a very learned and skilled professional. How anyone can know so much about this subject without the same life investment in this profession astounds me.
 
LOL i told you i would get slamed, it always happens, let me ask you a question, does a Model A really need a $5000 paint job? you see those cars at shows roped of so know one can get with in 10 feet of then, is that what you want go for it, but if you want to enjoy your car and save a bunch of time not roping it off, and a handful of money on barrier tape, pay $500 or $600 for a good looking paint job, one you will let your children and grand children sit in and ride in, that includes your friends for a short ride to the cafe for some food and great company, or pay the $5000 for a trailer queen, one that sits in your garage covered up
 
I'm sorry if you feel slammed; that was not my intention to pick on any one person. Thanks for being a good sport. It's largely the condition of the car that dictates what it needs cosmetically, and as Brent tried to explain and as i tried to explain, there are great differences that normally accompany price, assuming the rule "you get what you pay for." I was, however, attempting to educate those not intimately aquainted with the thorough restoration process. I whole-heartedly love most old cars, and most of their owners regardless of the visible quality of their appearance,so I agree with you there. And a cheap paint job does make a dramatic for-the-dollar change in the appearance of a lot of cars. There are a wide range of choices out there and every one should be respected for theirs. There are some very good books on body restoration that you would probably enjoy, one of them to begin with is the old PPG Antique Repaint Manual, I think still available through A supplers. HP Books' Paint and Body Manual is another good one as a primer. We all understand that any phase of this hobby could be a life-long career that could not be entirely mastered in a life time, such as welding or mechanical engineering. However Model A-ing is a hobby that is mastered (or never mastered, depending on how you look at it. We may consider that the enjoyment should mastered, anyway, tempered by occasional frustration) and thoroughly enjoyed by a huge range of personality types and for innumerable reasons. The Model A is very much an owner -restored car compared to many more expensive cars, and having restored a wide range of cars, I think the Model a crowd is the friendliest and most fun and down-to-earth. So if I discouraged or despairaged anyone by my previous comments, I'm sorry.
 
ford1 said:
LOL i told you i would get slamed, it always happens, let me ask you a question, does a Model A really need a $5000 paint job? you see those cars at shows roped of so know one can get with in 10 feet of then, is that what you want go for it, but if you want to enjoy your car and save a bunch of time not roping it off, and a handful of money on barrier tape, pay $500 or $600 for a good looking paint job, one you will let your children and grand children sit in and ride in, that includes your friends for a short ride to the cafe for some food and great company, or pay the $5000 for a trailer queen, one that sits in your garage covered up
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Let me start by saying I don't feel like I am "slamming you" but your opinions do seem to deserve a rebutal. Your initial comment regarding needing a $5,000.00 paint job tends to run along the same mindset as why would someone choose to purchase a NY Strip steak meal when a Big Mac meal from McDonalds will fill their stomach up too.

Second, not all "show cars" are roped off. The fine-point cars at this year's MARC meet were not roped off, --even during public viewing. People were able to get within 6 inches of them. If you have ever attended an AACA show, you will find these cars are not roped off either and the public is welcome to view them without ropes or crowd barriers around the vehicle.

And you seem to imply that owners of nice Model A's (i.e.: ones that have spent $5,000.00+ for paint jobs) don't enjoy their cars. Nothing could be further from the truth. The majority of Model A's that come out of my shop are driven by their owners hauling friends to dinner, or taking kids for rides. From time to time we get Model A's we previously restored return to have paint scratches and nicks repaired where they have been "used". I have yet to find an owner that was disgruntled having to pay to get this service done.

Finally, you also imply that someone cannot enjoy their Model A if it is in the garage covered up. Again, this is very naive thinking and not an accurate statement. My personal experiences have shown me that people own Model A's for many different reasons. Some do enjoy driving them. Some only enjoy the restoration of one but do not enjoy driving. Others enjoy showing their prized possession to others but cannot do the restoration nor do they really enjoy driving. Just because you cannot relate to why someone would spend hours trying to accurately replicate the aestetics of how a Model A looked exactly the day it rolled off the assembly line does not mean the person doing this exercise does not enjoy it. If a $499 "quickie shop" paint job makes you enjoy your Model A, then I am happy for you however if others don't share your point of view, please don't try to convince us that we are wrong in the way we spend our money.

Again, I am not slamming you for suggesting MAACO --but I am defending inaccurate statements regarding the quality from those shops is comparable to the work coming out of resto/rod shops but at less money. This thread has taken an immediate right turn away from the initial question that Bob had asked. Hopefully it can get back on track and be of some benefit to him.

.
 
Thanks for all of the comments. I certainly didn't mean to open a can of worms on this.
Let me explain what I have and what I have done maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
This was a car from California that obviously had been well stored in dry storage for years.
The car had no rust out and no major body work has been needed. It just had a few small dings along the outer fender lines and a few dings along the body sides where stuff had been leaned against it during long storage.

It was an excellent original car with one repaint done in lacquer that was done badly. It appears to have been sprayed with the wrong temp reducer causing it to dry right out of the gun before it could flatten on the panels. This resulted in something that looked like the surface of a basketball. Bad as it was it had adhered well to the original finish with no peeling and only minor chips and scratches.

I've spent several months, working as time permits, smoothing the body and fenders. I started with a 150 grit production paper then went to 220 and finally 320 grit papers. The car was then primered with a high fill primer and I am planning to to wet sand it with 400 grit wet paper before paint.

I am not shooting for a fine point restoration but don't want to produce a "20 footer" either. Hopefuilly my prep work will result in something better.
I don't want to have to make apologies for an inferior paint job which is what i am afraid I would do after some 30 years since painting the last one
The car merits a quality paint job within my budget resrtictions.

The last car I painted was a '30 coupe that I did with a lot of help from a friend (thanks Dick C.!) and we used acrylic lacquer and got a very good result.
Since we painted that coupe, automotive paints have changed dramatically and I was hoping to find some input now as to what to use. Should I stick with the old acrylic lacquer for a more authentic finish or go with a single stage urethane or a base coat, clear coat? What is the normal procedure now?
I am also hoping to find a local shop that I can work with to enable me to finish the car well.
Thanks again for any suggestions anyone can offer.
Bob
 
Bob, you didnt open a can of worms, you just started the usual lively discusion between the high points guys, and the guys who build for every day driving and car shows, this is a common acurence LOL
 
I painted my roadster with PPG acrylic enamel and although not a show finish it came out reasonably well. Back in 1980 I painted my Special coupe with Dupont acrylic enamel and its just starting to lose some gloss and getting thin on the top of the tank. People still like the way it looks.
 
Here are some bits of history,from my experience, that maybe useful, since this has turned into an interesting thread. When I started working in body shops in '72, acrylic lacquer was the finish of choice for the quality jobs or 95% of our work, because it, then, held up about as well as or better than the alkyd and acrylic(un-catalysed, as catalyst didn't commonly exist then) enamels that were used on trucks and less expensive paint jobs. The lacquer would dry fast enough to wet sand it five or less minutes after sprayed, so any imperfections could be corrected without delay, and it dryed so fast that it hardly had time to accumulate any dust or nibs. A minimum of five coats was required, sometimes eight or more, for coverage and adequate build. Oh! they were beautiful, and didn't require a paint booth, since our lungs were made of iron then and the paint overspray was dry powder by the time it had travelled 16" from the gun. It would color sand and polish up to look wet, if you didn't get it perfect out of the gun. Beautiful stuff.
Very soon, though, catalyst for acrylic enamel came along and that combo made a finish that held a hard gloss for years or decades and was tougher and more chemical resistant than the lacquer. About that same time, Imron came out, and the claims made for its durability and gloss became legendary fact. Some of us got very sick spraying it, as we were used to no lung protection or just paper masks. We learned what isocyanates are.
User-friendly single-stage and base-clear urethane systems required some years to reach today's level and there was a period when we had to experiment with a lot of products. Manufacturer's and rep's claims for most of those new and undeveloped products were usually misleading or worse. As a result, it was a frustrating period, with some public embarrassment and considerable financial loss.
Because of that, I continued to primarily use lacquer up until 1989, since I had a better chance of controlling the outcome with it. But acrylic lacquer, by then, had proved inferior to the now highly durable urethanes. I have almost forgotten how quickly lacquer would fade when exposed to the weather year round and how chip-prone it is. A bird dropping would ruin it if not washed off immediately, and often a wet leaf left on the surface would permanently etch it down to the primer. It's nice, though, to see an old lacquer job that has been protected and well cared for. It can have a hard gloss or a soft glow, depending on the color and surface quality. It is still a viable choice, as far as I'm concerned for a restoration that will be closely cared for. It is kinda fun to shoot, but has a lot of problems with lifting,etc., if you're not on top of the game. Occasionaly I have to use it to match in an ancient restoration, still. One neat thing about it today is that it can be shot over modern polyester and urethane primers, if you use an epoxy sealer. Then it will gloss out even better than it did years ago.
 
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