Paint Finishes

[Bob Bidonde]

What are your recommendations for restoration paint finishes for a Model A?

I have been using single stage polyurethane over epoxy primer on the body, fenders & aprons, POR-15 black on the frame & brake drums, powder coat on the wheels, Krylon primer & black paint on components & what the dealers sell for Engine Green.


I avoid using clear coat paint on the body because it complicates DIY touchup of chips & scratches.

 

[gdmn852]

Hello, I still like the old style lacquer paint, but harder to find locally, easier to blend in a panel, wet sand and buff until it was acceptable. Much like acrylic enamel, the two step base color and clear, the whole panel has to be painted, the bc/cc can be sanded and buffed also if desired. The clear coat will often give much more gloss than the original paint.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

What are your recommendations for restoration paint finishes for a Model A?

I have been using single stage polyurethane over epoxy primer on the body, fenders & aprons, POR-15 black on the frame & brake drums, powder coat on the wheels, Krylon primer & black paint on components & what the dealers sell for Engine Green.


I avoid using clear coat paint on the body because it complicates DIY touchup of chips & scratches.

This is a loaded question for sure...... Are you wanting answers to what is the easiest/cheapest? Are you wanting it to look aesthetically correct?? Are you asking what the latest products are???


I made a comment the other day to the effect that whatever you knew and did 5 years ago in the paint world is outdated technology, ...with some products not even available for purchase now. PPG's Concept (DCC line) is pretty much one of those.

Just a few short years ago, the wisdom was to spray the bare metal with a catalyzed Epoxy primer, then do the Filler work over the Epoxy, followed by using Hi-build Primers (-Featherfill, Slick-sand, etc.) then a Urethane surfacer followed by the Topcoat. In reality, all that has changed. Now the recommendations by the leading paint manufacturers is use any body fillers listed as DTM (-Direct To Metal) since much of the Epoxy would be sanded away as the fillers were leveled using the surrounding metal as the datum gauge. FWIW, the old Slick-Sand, Featherfill, etc. were not really DTM approved which is why there was a push for using Epoxy.

So now we prefer to use an Evercoat product that is called EverGlass because it is very flexible and acts much like fiberglass being waterproof and chip resistant. Although I don't necessarily recommend using it this thick, the manufacturer will allow it to be ¼" thick ...and survive. ( Try that with body fillers we all used a decade or so ago!! ) Once the filler work is completed, you are ready for a Primer/Surfacer that takes the place of filler skim coats of Rage Gold or Platinum Plus.

Our preferred High-Build Primer is EverCoat's Optex 4:1, ...and I feel this is a breakthrough for the home hobbyist restorer for several reasons. To begin with, it is DTM which saves in time & materials fo having to apply Epoxy. Secondly, it is waterproof which is a plus for those who watersand their surfaces. Also, being water proof is extremely nice for those who take long periods of time to finish their bodywork. Now a sheetmetal piece can be partially completed and then set for months/years without worry of the primer drawing moisture and setting up rust under the substrates as long as it is fully coated with Optex. Another thing that is a huge plus for Optex is that this product dries in a pinkish color. Once dried, as soon as the 'shell' of the primer has been sanded thru, the primer turns from pink to gray. For older, tired eyes, this is a huge help in ensuring you know where you have sanded, -and where you haven't. The final benefit which we like (-and something I feel is great for the home restorer) is we often roll it on instead of spraying it. We use a 4" wide foam roller to apply the freshly mixed Optex and it rolls on just like Latex paint from the big box store. Do as big, -or as small of an area as you like. And, what this means for the home restorer is they can mix smaller quantities yet actually apply more of the product because you are not losing a portion of the product in overspray during the application process. Cleanup is a piece of cake too since you throw the foam roller and the plastic paint tray away. (-once dried it is no longer considered hazardous waste) Also, the time savings of not having to clean a spray gun, nor spending the money on a dedicated primer gun with a 1.8 or 2.0 tip is a plus. Theoretically, you can now prime your pieces in the driveway with all your neighbor's kids watching without worrying about the popo being called. I have linked some literature below for those who want to study this a tad more.

The final thing I would recommend is using US Chemical's Icing putty at two different stages. This product is much akin to the old Nitro-stan putty that we used 50 years ago except the Icing has longevity built into it. While the Icing is not DTM so care must be used when applying it over the EverGlass, it is really good at filling 36 grit and 80 grit sand-scratches when the EverGlass as been sanded. With this product used to fill the deep sand-scratches, there is less chance of trapped air when the Optex is applied. Just apply a thin coating over the EverGlass and sand with 120 grit and you are ready for the Optex. Then, when you are nearing the 400-600 grit blocksanding phase, if you have any imperfections to correct, the Icing putty is perfect for this. Since it will be sanded, it can be topcoated with a 2K urethane paint -or you can add some Optex ove top to seal it in. The reason why the Icing can do this is that it is also a Polyester product that does not absorb water.

Probably the only other thing that we use that is worth speaking about is our production paper (a/k/a sandpaper.). We have pretty much phased out stickyback sandpaper on a roll. Instead, we are using a 'screen' product that looks like the stuff you work drywall mud with. The product we use is called AutoNet, and comes in grits from 80 grit all the way to 600 grit. Click on the link to read more about that stuff if you are interested.

.


Ohh, and for those who are frustrated that PPG dropped the Concept paint line, there are two options that we have found. One is PPG's product called Evolution that is in their DelFleet line. This is the product that most closely replaces the Concept. Another option is a paint called Imron. While many may remember when DuPont revolutionized the paint world when they invented the aircraft paint called Imron, -well that paint was phased out however when Axalta purchased DuPont, they brought out that line again formulated to compete against the properties of Concept. It has a higher solids content over what we are finding in the Evolution (-or Essential) lines, and so far we have been able to a very, very close to exact match when the Model-A Paint & Refinish Guide chips are scanned.



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[old31]

Brent, you are a wealth of knowledge. Very well written.

 

[jb-ob]

Nice sermon Reverend Brent, from the 'Church of What Is Happening Now' (arh, arh)

Most serious sin in the entire process is not using BLACK PRIMER. Two thirds of a Model A is black, so why use either a light gray or tan primer where the first stone chip looks the size of a man hole cover ??

Thanks for the time & explanation Brent.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Nice sermon Reverend Brent, from the 'Church of What Is Happening Now' (arh, arh)

Most serious sin in the entire process is not using BLACK PRIMER. Two thirds of a Model A is black, so why use either a light gray or tan primer where the first stone chip looks the size of a man hole cover ??

Thanks for the time & explanation Brent.

The only Black shade of polyester primer that I know of (-or at least you used to be able to get) is FeatherFill. The issue for me is that FeatherFill is not DTM. I also don't think FeatherFill can be applied with a roller.

 

[Keith True]

Years ago I used lots of Featherfill.I did a lot of old equipment back then,so I had to deal with a lot of pits.I did have some problems with it,the rep told me it was mostly because it had sat on the shelf too long.I started using K36,as a pit filler,I really liked it for that.I liked Durathane for motorcycle frames,(my own stuff).I bought a gallon for my own use,and still have an inch in the bottom of the can.I was an equipment painter,and my favorite DTM was DP40 and Mar Hyde.That yellow Mar Hyde was tough stuff.I did a lowbed trailer with it around 1990 and to this day it is still holding tight.The topcoat is all chipped up from chains and bulldozer tracks,but that yellow is still showing through the chips.I stopped using Ditzler for topcoats in the mid 80's.I liked it on cars and trucks,but on real iron the solids tended to pull away from the corners.The black Durathane was an exception to that,I did a couple of 80 foot crane booms without that happening.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Years ago I used lots of Featherfill.I did a lot of old equipment back then,so I had to deal with a lot of pits.I did have some problems with it,the rep told me it was mostly because it had sat on the shelf too long.I started using K36,as a pit filler,I really liked it for that.I liked Durathane for motorcycle frames,(my own stuff).I bought a gallon for my own use,and still have an inch in the bottom of the can.I was an equipment painter,and my favorite DTM was DP40 and Mar Hyde.That yellow Mar Hyde was tough stuff.I did a lowbed trailer with it around 1990 and to this day it is still holding tight.The topcoat is all chipped up from chains and bulldozer tracks,but that yellow is still showing through the chips.I stopped using Ditzler for topcoats in the mid 80's.I liked it on cars and trucks,but on real iron the solids tended to pull away from the corners.The black Durathane was an exception to that,I did a couple of 80 foot crane booms without that happening.

Just remember that K36 is a urethane primer, and like many other PPG products, it has gone thru changes over the years that were not necessarily favorable IMHO.

Unfortunately, 3M discontinued the MarHyde label quite awhile ago. It was good stuff, but I think it also had heavy metals in it.

 

[jb-ob]

Brent,

Black 2K primer is available from Southern Polyurethanes, Inc. They have an excellent self etching epoxy black primer as well.

SPI paints are more for custom work, not for production shops. While excellent materials, way too much like science projects with extended cross link times and vaping to be practicable for most of us.

I used Icing for years until I switched to 3M Platinum bondo , which allows me to finish sand with 220 before priming.

After the Gettysburg MARC National, I stiped a 1903 Ford body at a shop owned by a Mennonite gentleman who has the reputation for doing all the very early wood carriage bodies. All he uses is House Of Colors Paint.

'All roads lead to Jerusalem', just a fellow traveler, jb

 

[Ed in Maine]

Brent, I want you to know that I have copied your presentation, punched 3-holes and placed it in my paint recommendations manual. If I only had all this information and products 30 years ago! At an age of 83, I hope I never pickup another spray gun again. Since 1966, I have painted 1930 Model A Town Sedan, 1962 Corvette, 1932 Model B Coupe, 1914 Model T Touring and a 1931 Model A Slant Windshield Cabriolet. The 1931 Model A Victoria is in Florida but was purchased with a good paint job before I bought it. I had started with DuPont Centari and thought it was a good paint system. I finished with epoxy primer, high build primer and acrylic urethane top coat that I thought was the absolute best paint system. It is a shame that by the time you get to the last project you have learned from all your past mistakes and finally know what you are doing. Ed

 

[Gene F]

About a year ago I painted the hood of my Marquis. I found out that a good buddy that knows what he is doing, and can coach me a bit is very valuable. My hood was a big mess before. It's at least acceptable now.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Jim, I honestly do not have any experiences with SPI for a couple of reasons. First, we are a PPG Certified shop which allows us to offer lifetime warranties of our paintwork providing we follow PPG's recommendations. We have permission to use EverCoat's products as directed without compromising the PPG warranty. Since we cannot get that with SPI, we did/do not use their products. Secondly, when their rep called years ago, they did not offer topcoats other than BC/CC, ...which is not what we use.


Ed, I am flattered that you took the time to print my thoughts however the unfortunate thing is when you read your notes one or two years from now, they likely won't be relevant because today's technology will be outdated then. It honestly changes that fast.

 

[jb-ob]

Brent, Imagine what your Father might say about materials today. Back then lacquer & DeLux.

As unscientific as they were, they got the job done and with some maintenance they were durable.
320, 400, & 600 wet dry paper in an old dirty water bucket, saving the used 600 paper for black cars. Final polish with orange cutting compound. 'Turtle wax' on a show car !

Back then you were a painter, today just an applicator, stir it up & pour it on.

The stuff is so toxic today you need to wear a space suit just the mix the paint in the paint room. Years from now all that will remain will be a plastic skin.

Best, jb

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Brent, Imagine what your Father might say about materials today. Back then lacquer & DeLux.

As unscientific as they were, they got the job done and with some maintenance they were durable.
320, 400, & 600 wet dry paper in an old dirty water bucket, saving the used 600 paper for black cars. Final polish with orange cutting compound. 'Turtle wax' on a show car !

Back then you were a painter, today just an applicator, stir it up & pour it on.

The stuff is so toxic today you need to wear a space suit just the mix the paint in the paint room. Years from now all that will remain will be a plastic skin.

Best, jb

Yes, a lot about the hobby today would frustrate my Father!! Ahh, Turtle Wax in the green plastic bottle.

 

[ModelA29]

Ahh, Turtle Wax in the green plastic bottle.

I still have a few new cans of Turtle Paste Wax. I use it on the body molds I have for my race car. Wax it 3-4 times spray on mold release and the part will pop right out. The best liquid wax I found was by Wax Shop, Super Glaze pure Carnuba. Even brought back the finish on a black car I bought. Downside you had to put it on every couple weeks if the car sat outside. It didn't last like todays various chemical coatings.

I still have about 20-30 gallons of old Imron in the garage. A guy bought 400 gallons from a place that built cement trucks. They were too big to paint in their booth so they painted them outside. The South Coast Air Quality Board caught them and removed their permit for any painting on site. He bought the stuff for $1 a gallon with the catalyst. I sprayed Imron primer one car and the best respirator I had wasn't enough. I opened the doors and blew fresh air through the garage. For the finish coat I paid a guy I knew with a booth and fresh air hood to paint it. Nasty stuff - when I dig it out it's going to the county hazardous waste disposal event they hold a couple times a year.

 

[rotorwrench]

I started out with Deltron from PPG and then moved to rural 4-corners Colorado where everything PPG was not easily available. I went to Imron on the old Dupont label. It was just a bit tricky compared to Deltron but manageable. I moved to TX but still was easier to get the old Imron. After Axalta took over Dupont, I had to use what ever was available. Concept by PPG was a favorite when I could get it since it was basically just like the old Deltron. After that PPG supplier folded, I went to Jet Glo by Sherwin-Williams. That supplier also disappeared now. I've looked at the new aircraft grade Imron but I'd have to order it out of Dallas-Fort Worth so I avoid that. San Antonio is still an aircraft town with Boeing, the military, and several other big heavy aircraft shops but it seems that the suppliers of aircraft paint products don't last here for one reason or another.

Most of my paint & body experience has been on aluminum skinned aircraft so the process of prepping and priming is different that auto body work. Aluminum is less forgiving if procedural steps and materials aren't carefully followed.

I'll have to see if we have a PPG supplier here for the Evolution product. As far as toxicity, I've always worked with toxic stuff. I still use zinc chromate primer and other toxic stuff. I just make sure to use at least a respirator and gloves. Old habits are hard to break.

 

[David in San Antonio]

The depth of experience on this forum astounds me.
Question: what is a good way to preserve the paint which was applied around 1957? There are a few areas (dime to quarter size) where the paint has gone AWOL, a few scratches and cracks. No need to shoot false patina, it really does show some primer in places.

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

The depth of experience on this forum astounds me.
Question: what is a good way to preserve the paint which was applied around 1957? There are a few areas (dime to quarter size) where the paint has gone AWOL, a few scratches and cracks. No need to shoot false patina, it really does show some primer in places.

I am assuming you are speaking of Lacquer paint?

If so, there are products that 'moisturize' the paint and keep it somewhat pliable. I prefer Meguiars #7 wax as it reintroduces oils back into the paint. The 2nd way to preserve paint is keep the paint in a climate where rust cannot form under the substrates. I would think that San Antone's weather would be perfect for keeping humidity down.

 

[jb-ob]

Keeping 'company' on the shelf with the vintage Turtle Wax is some first generation 'Meguiar' finish. (Black bottles)

"Meguiar logo of red, white & green with an armor knight's helmet with red roses.

'Competition Finish Conditioner and Competition Finish'

"Lowers E.T.'s, The final touch for Show, Drag, & Race"

Only polish for a kid with a '30 Andulasite blue lacquer Coupe. (Late 1960's)

 

[David in San Antonio]

I don’t know if the paint is lacquer. I was told by the prior owner, now in his 80’s, that his father refurbished and painted the car from 1957-1959.
And yes, San Antonio is relatively dry during the warmer months, not being near bodies of water. Things do rust, but they don’t dump tons of salt on the roads, and rust perforation is very uncommon except on cars which came from other places.