old 312 and oil

[Stephenorf]

I have a 1959 Merc with a 312, and to my knowledge the motor has never been rebuilt. It doesn't look like its been worked on in ages. So I assume it is old and tired.

That being said, I should probably change the oil and filter before I try to start it for the first time. Anyone have a good recommendation on what weight I should go with? I'm in Texas, where it doesn't ever really get that cold. And if a cold snap does come around, I won't be driving the old Monterey anyway. So it will be more or less a warm weather/fair weather driver. Also, any oil filter that specs out for a 312 will work, or is there somethinf specific I need to look for in an oil filter?

Lastly, it has an automatic transmission...(and i have receipts where it was rebuilt. I can't read the date on the invoice but I figure it was sometime back in 2003, that's when all the other work to the car was performed). Do I need to use type F fluid, or is there another type that the old Mercomatic ****** needs?

Thanks!

 

[dmsfrr]

'Mercon' transmission fluid. Unless you know it already has something else in it, then use that.

Does it have a cartridge style oil filter (photo #1) or a disposable spin-on? (photo #2)
Not sure about what weight oil to use. A lighter weight (10w30) should flow into the engine & bearings sooner, and be easier for the starter to turn, but an old worn engine will need a heavier oil to help compensate for 'well used' surfaces when at operating temps.

 

[Stephenorf]

Looks like mine is the spin-on oil filter. The existing filter is a Purolator L30001.

 

[1942deluxe]

Motorcraft FL1A should work.

 

[Stephenorf]

Motorcraft FL1A should work.

Great! I was wondering about that. I have a few FL1A on a parts shelf somewhere....

 

[Anteek29]

Personally, after changing the oil and installing a new filter, I'd remove the spark plugs, squirt some oil into the cylinders and crank over the engine for a period of time to ensure full fresh oil coverage to the internals prior to application of normal run loading...this engine has been inactive for years and cylinder walls and bearings are probably dry.

 

[JimNNN]

. A lighter weight (10w30) should flow into the engine & bearings sooner, and be easier for the starter to turn, but an old worn engine will need a heavier oil to help compensate for 'well used' surfaces when at operating temps.

This is my impression as well. You're going to find that a lot of people use Rotella 15w40 in their old engines, but that doesn't mean it's what everyone should use. I like the idea of using 10w30 for initial startup, then maybe using something a little more stout to protect for heavier load conditions.


I also have an unrebuilt Y-block. Several years ago, I used to get a second or two of bearing noise at startup, at least on occasion. Then I started putting STP treatment in the oil, and that noise went away and never returned. That's what works for my engine. At this point, I use 10w40 in it on a regular basis.

 

[Stephenorf]

Personally, after changing the oil and installing a new filter, I'd remove the spark plugs, squirt some oil into the cylinders and crank over the engine for a period of time to ensure full fresh oil coverage to the internals prior to application of normal run loading...this engine has been inactive for years and cylinder walls and bearings are probably dry.

Hmm..I always heard the long cranking times was bad for the engine, because the oil wasn't getting where it needed to be with such low RPMs. If the fuel pump actuator arm is any indication, then the engine is really dry. I have removed the distributor and spun the oil pump with a drill prior to starting a freshly rebuit enging, just to get oil in al the journals and such, but not on a motor that has been sitting. And the way the distributor is all the way at the back of themotor, and at an angle, I was hoping to not have to do that.

How long would you suggest I crank the motor to get oil in the right places beofre firing it up?

 

[Stephenorf]

This is my impression as well. You're going to find that a lot of people use Rotella 15w40 in their old engines, but that doesn't mean it's what everyone should use. I like the idea of using 10w30 for initial startup, then maybe using something a little more stout to protect for heavier load conditions.


I also have an unrebuilt Y-block. Several years ago, I used to get a second or two of bearing noise at startup, at least on occasion. Then I started putting STP treatment in the oil, and that noise went away and never returned. That's what works for my engine. At this point, I use 10w40 in it on a regular basis.

OK, maybe some oil with a high zinc content then. Or some STP or Lucas oil treatment would do the trick. I haven't drained the crankcase yet, I'm a little curious as to wh t the oil that comes out will look like. Hopefully just golden brown and smooth....

But yeah, I don't want to hear any bearing noises...ever!

 

[KULTULZ]

I have removed the distributor and spun the oil pump with a drill prior to starting a freshly rebuit enging, just to get oil in al the journals and such, but not on a motor that has been sitting.

How long would you suggest I crank the motor to get oil in the right places beofre firing it up?

Not recommended to crank a dry engine. You need fresh oil and then spin the pump with a pressure gauge attached to realize pressure. Remove the right rocker cover to verify oil supply to the valve-train.

OK, maybe some oil with a high zinc content then. Or some STP or Lucas oil treatment would do the trick.

No on STP or any kind of additive like that.

IMO you need for initial start and run-in VALVOLINE VR-1 10W30 as to initial fire and run. This oil is high in zinc but low in additive/dispersant packages as they promote foaming @ HI-RPM.

Run that for a few weeks and then drop and add regular oil and a fresh filter. Least amount of damage that way.

 

[Stephenorf]

Not recommended to crank a dry engine. You need fresh oil and then spin the pump with a pressure gauge attached to realize pressure. Remove the right rocker cover to verify oil supply to the valve-train.

No on STP or any kind of additive like that.

IMO you need for initial start and run-in VALVOLINE VR-1 10W30 as to initial fire and run. This oil is high in zinc but low in additive/dispersant packages as they promote foaming @ HI-RPM.

Run that for a few weeks and then drop and add regular oil and a fresh filter. Least amount of damage that way.

What are the chances I can just start the motor without fooling around with priming the oil and not still cause any problems?

 

[Stephenorf]

Not recommended to crank a dry engine. You need fresh oil and then spin the pump with a pressure gauge attached to realize pressure. Remove the right rocker cover to verify oil supply to the valve-train.

No on STP or any kind of additive like that.

IMO you need for initial start and run-in VALVOLINE VR-1 10W30 as to initial fire and run. This oil is high in zinc but low in additive/dispersant packages as they promote foaming @ HI-RPM.

Run that for a few weeks and then drop and add regular oil and a fresh filter. Least amount of damage that way.

Any idea if the size of the oil pump shaft is the same size as the shaft used on early Ford Mustangs (260/289/302)? I bet it's going to be a bugger getting the distributor out of the motor. Those things are usually baked in real good after so many years. All the varnish on the bottom of the dizzy makes taking it out out a real chore. I guess I'll hope for the best.

I don't have a oil pressure gauge handy. But If I run a drill on the oil pump for a few minutes, and I see oil coming out of the top of the rockers then I guess I've done all the priming I can do with a drill, right?

I don't plan to run through my normal engine break in procedure (like for a new motor) when i crank this puppy up. I figure the cam and lifters should be ready to go, and the rings should already be seated. I was just going to start the motor and then start fine-tuning it after it warms up. Check for fuel and vacuum leaks, anything smoking, odd sounds, whatever...I have no idea on what to expect here. I don't plan or reving the motor right away (or maybe at all...LOL).

I still got to check the ****** and brakes and stuff even if I get the motor to start and run.

 

[KULTULZ]

What are the chances I can just start the motor without fooling around with priming the oil and not still cause any problems?

You can do that. Just remember, the engine is dry. Just start and bring to an idle until everything stabilizes. The most damage to any engine is start-up.

Any idea if the size of the oil pump shaft is the same size as the shaft used on early Ford Mustangs (260/289/302)? I bet it's going to be a bugger getting the distributor out of the motor. Those things are usually baked in real good after so many years. All the varnish on the bottom of the dizzy makes taking it out out a real chore. I guess I'll hope for the best.

I don't have a oil pressure gauge handy. But If I run a drill on the oil pump for a few minutes, and I see oil coming out of the top of the rockers then I guess I've done all the priming I can do with a drill, right?

I don't plan to run through my normal engine break in procedure (like for a new motor) when i crank this puppy up. I figure the cam and lifters should be ready to go, and the rings should already be seated. I was just going to start the motor and then start fine-tuning it after it warms up. Check for fuel and vacuum leaks, anything smoking, odd sounds, whatever...I have no idea on what to expect here. I don't plan or reving the motor right away (or maybe at all...LOL).

I still got to check the ****** and brakes and stuff even if I get the motor to start and run.

The valve-train is going to be completely dry. The rings are going to be dry and possibly frozen.

If you don't want to fool with DIST EXTRACTION (and it can be a b!tch), just put fresh oil in it and turn it over by hand a few revolutions to make sure it is free internally. This would be best done with the plugs out as it will cut down on the necessary applied torque.

I forgot to quote this post in my first reply -

Anteek29 - Re: old 312 and oil

Personally, after changing the oil and installing a new filter, I'd remove the spark plugs, squirt some oil into the cylinders and crank over the engine for a period of time to ensure full fresh oil coverage to the internals prior to application of normal run loading...this engine has been inactive for years and cylinder walls and bearings are probably dry.

GOOD INFO!

That engine is completely dry, unlike a freshly rebuilt engine. The first few seconds will cause the most wear.

If you decide to remove the DIST, get back (on this thread) and we can discuss it.

OH!

Yes on the rocker shaft. When you see oil on the right bank (the right bank loses pressure first usually on a FYB), you have pressure. If you see little/no oil, either there is low/no pressure and/or the right rocker arm supply is defective.

 

[Stephenorf]

The valve-train is going to be completely dry. The rings are going to be dry and possibly frozen.

If you don't want to fool with DIST EXTRACTION (and it can be a b!tch), just put fresh oil in it and turn it over by hand a few revolutions to make sure it is free internally. This would be best done with the plugs out as it will cut down on the necessary applied torque.

So, I've already cranked to motor over a few times, but there is no fuel being delivered to the carb. I used a shot of ether to the carb, and the engine fired right off, but died quickly as there was no fuel. So I know for sure the enging/rings are not siexed up, and I know the electical part of the equation is working. I think all I need is fuel and it will run....but we'll see. The point is, is that the enging turns freely and is not locked up. Now There is some promissing news!

 

[Stephenorf]

IMO you need for initial start and run-in VALVOLINE VR-1 10W30 as to initial fire and run. This oil is high in zinc but low in additive/dispersant packages as they promote foaming @ HI-RPM.

Run that for a few weeks and then drop and add regular oil and a fresh filter. Least amount of damage that way.

So since this is not a fresh engine rebuild, why change the oil after a couple of weeks? There should be no metal shavings in the oil like after a fresh rebuild. I always thought that we changed the oil and filter after an initial breakin to get rid of whatever metal particles were floating around. I'm wondering if I there is any risk to leaving the freshly-changed oil there until a "regular" mainanence oil change is desired/required.

 

[miker98038]

Maybe I missed it either here or in one of the other posts. But I’d pull at least one valve cover and see what is up top in the way of sludge. If it’s clean, so much the better. But soon after getting it to start, you’ll want to check for oil up top. Pulling the valves covers first will make it easier later, and give some information. I know, they might leak, but they need to come off and have new gaskets (probably) in the near future anyway.

What you find will also play into the oil change. If it’s really bad, you may find the sludge in the pan rapidly clogs the oil pick up as detergent oil starts to dissolve it.

 

[KULTULZ]

What you find will also play into the oil change. If it’s really bad, you may find the sludge in the pan rapidly clogs the oil pick up as detergent oil starts to dissolve it.

As usual, GOOD POINT!

 

[JimNNN]

So since this is not a fresh engine rebuild, why change the oil after a couple of weeks? There should be no metal shavings in the oil like after a fresh rebuild. I always thought that we changed the oil and filter after an initial breakin to get rid of whatever metal particles were floating around. I'm wondering if I there is any risk to leaving the freshly-changed oil there until a "regular" mainanence oil change is desired/required.

Years ago I used to read in Hemmings Classic Car magazine many warnings about using detergent oil in a survivor engine that was being restarted after years of non-use. They felt that the detergent would dislodge existing sludge and those pieces of sludge would cause serious problems in the oiling system. Therefore, they recommended using non-detergent oil (indefinitely.)

I never really agreed with that approach - I want existing sludge removed from my engine, but they're right about dislodged sludge being risky to an engine. Very frequent oil changes are a way to reduce that risk. I found huge chunks of sludge floating in the first couple of oil changes for my '54, which had been sitting for many years. If I was starting a dormant engine from the 50's or 60's for the first time in a long time, I'd at least do a few oil changes at intervals of a few hours running time. An even better approach would be dropping the oil pan and monitoring/dealing with the sludge that way as miker said.


There can be metal shavings in the oil of an old engine.

 

[dmsfrr]

... you may find the sludge in the pan rapidly clogs the oil pick up ...

... I want existing sludge removed from my engine, but they're right about dislodged sludge being risky to an engine. Very frequent oil changes are a way to reduce that risk. ...

Poor to non-existent oil change intervals helped ruin this one. The oil light stayed on when under 1000 rpm, the pickup tube was sitting in sludge.
.

 

[Stephenorf]

Years ago I used to read in Hemmings Classic Car magazine many warnings about using detergent oil in a survivor engine that was being restarted after years of non-use. They felt that the detergent would dislodge existing sludge and those pieces of sludge would cause serious problems in the oiling system. Therefore, they recommended using non-detergent oil (indefinitely.)

I never really agreed with that approach - I want existing sludge removed from my engine, but they're right about dislodged sludge being risky to an engine. Very frequent oil changes are a way to reduce that risk. I found huge chunks of sludge floating in the first couple of oil changes for my '54, which had been sitting for many years. If I was starting a dormant engine from the 50's or 60's for the first time in a long time, I'd at least do a few oil changes at intervals of a few hours running time. An even better approach would be dropping the oil pan and monitoring/dealing with the sludge that way as miker said.


There can be metal shavings in the oil of an old engine.

Hmm, yes, that makes sense. I've been reading how sludge is an increased problem for the Ford Y block engines. Thanks for the reasoning behind the frequent oil changes. I have my 5 quarts of Valvoline VR1 ready to go! Looks like I'll need to stock up on oil & filters. I have a few 5 quart jugs of random oil that have been collecting dust for years. I think I just found a good use for that oil!

This afternoon I'll pull the RH valve cover anf hopefully get an idea for level of sludge that I'm ddealing with. Hoping for just a light coating of colder varnish...