What is the consensus out there regarding running a fully inserted engine with or without a full flow oil filter? One of our club members spun an inserted rear main bearing and it ceased up the motor. It is a recent rebuilt but he is running it without a full flow oil filter. Personally I thing that since inserts are harder then Babbitt a full flow oil filter should be installed.
Oil filter
- Thread starter arnhemmer
- Start date
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
If rebuilt by a motor rebuilder, talk to them before attempting anything. I would think that a rebuilder at the very least would be a great source for answering your questions.
Synchro909
Well-known member
I run an oil filter (prefer full flow) on every Model A I have owned whether babbit or inserts. IMO, they are one of the biggest steps forward in engine design to prolong engine life. Air filter is another. Can you imagine the response you would get if you tried making a warranty claim on a failed engine in a modern car if it came out that you had removed the air and oil filters???
Railcarmover
BANNED
So was the seized engine with the spun rear main caused by lack of filtration?
Synchro909
Well-known member
I have that picture laminated and I leave it in the window of my car when at shows etc. EVERYONE knows what it means without me saying a word!
BTW, That's not my leg. Someone fiddled with my car but only once.
BTW again, That is a picture of my dog, Synchro. We lost him 12 years ago now.
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@railcarmover: We don't know yet, I just want to know if that could be a possibility since I have heard several recommendation to filter an inserted engine. This happened in the state of Washington after a long trip from San Jose California. He trailer ed it home and dropped the pan and found the spun bearing.
George Miller
Well-known member
That is a common problem with the rear main with inserts. You need a oil path in the upper shell to get oil to the back of the 3 inch long bearing. If you do not do it your chances of spinning a bearing is great.
Synchro909
Well-known member
At what speed did he travel? These cars don't like anything over 45 at the most for sustained periods. I know, I know, there are plenty of you who say they cruise at 50 or 55 mph but I would never do that in a Model A without an overdrive.
I just added a full flow oil filter to my Model A because I know how much longer lawn mower engines run that have oil filters....car engines can't be any different. I had a burnt valve so I had the head off to replace and lap the valves so I decided it was a good time to replace the side cover with one that had a full flow filter. The installation was not hard.
So far the engine sounds happy, the oil pressure is a little higher because the oil has to be pushed through the filter and the oil is still so clean that I can barely see it on the dip stick.
So far the engine sounds happy, the oil pressure is a little higher because the oil has to be pushed through the filter and the oil is still so clean that I can barely see it on the dip stick.
It will be interesting to see how his is set up and what happened to the bearing.
Jim Brierley
Well-known member
I always run full-flow filters on my engines, some have been inserted, some babbit. Having said this, I worked at LAX for almost 10 years, during the time the EPA was clamping down on a lot of things, including waste oil filters. We switched-out the filters on our police fleet from OEM to a cleanable filter, sorry can't recall the brand. They had an extremely fine screen in them. They worked well, so I bought one for my 6.2 liter GMC diesel. I cleaned it religiously a few times, but never found any crud in it, so started cleaning it at every 2nd oil change. When I sold it 262,000 miles later, it still had no engine problems. So IMO, a full-flow filter is still highly recommended but I think not critical, if using modern oils. 2 diesel trucks later, I have stock filters but change them every-other change. The color of the oil doesn't tell you a lot.
He was traveling at about 55 mph in overdrive.
Synchro909
Well-known member
I don't think that is an excessive speed in O/D and I stuggle to see how an oil filter would have changed things for him. I wonder whether the bearing was set up with not enough clearance. I am assuming everything was OK with the return tube etc.
I have heard it said that there are plenty of engines running around out there with bearings that are too loose. There are NO engines running around with bearings that are too tight.
updraught
Well-known member
"I have heard it said that there are plenty of engines running around out there with bearings that are too loose. There are NO engines running around with bearings that are too tight."
That's very filo-sofical ...
Some info. Don't know if it is good or bad. Just sayin.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/AERbearinginserts.htm
Rich from AFR doesn't use a filter, according to a video he made.
However, he thinks it is a good idea.
But doesn't recommend a metal timing gear, for reasons unknown.
That's very filo-sofical ...
Some info. Don't know if it is good or bad. Just sayin.
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/AERbearinginserts.htm
Rich from AFR doesn't use a filter, according to a video he made.
However, he thinks it is a good idea.
But doesn't recommend a metal timing gear, for reasons unknown.
Railcarmover
BANNED
The most likely reason AER designed their own insert bearings is to use them in gravity fed and low pressure applications.Beware the engine builder who uses off the shelf insert bearings, the majority of them are designed for pressurized systems to keep them clean,cool and lubricated. Unfortunately when an insert bearing fails it wipes out what it bears,odds are the rear main journal took a beating in this failure as well.
Two benefits of poured babbit bearings is its ability to withstand gravity fed systems and conduct heat.When it fails it generally continues to protect what it bears by its sheer mass.unlike the thin babbit coating of the insert,the poured babbits thickness saves the rotating group from destruction for the most part.
Filters and oil are cheap..change them more often than less..
Two benefits of poured babbit bearings is its ability to withstand gravity fed systems and conduct heat.When it fails it generally continues to protect what it bears by its sheer mass.unlike the thin babbit coating of the insert,the poured babbits thickness saves the rotating group from destruction for the most part.
Filters and oil are cheap..change them more often than less..
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
x2
I am a believer in poured Babbitt, if done correctly by a skilled mechanic. Inserts are OK, but my belief is inserts do not require as much skill to do.
Thanks rail car for the additional info. on types of inserts.
Am open to being corrected if this is incorrect.
Railcarmover
BANNED
One of the reasons insert bearings are popular is they are no risk to the engine builder/machinist. Line bore it and snap them in,good to go. A babbit pourer has to be on his game every time for consistent quality results.From a business perspective its a wise move,minimizing warranty claims maximizes profit,it also allows for lower functioning help..