Nuts-Bolts-Cotter pins....

[tinmanlsu]

I won't say a name, but I recently had a problem with a vendor on a bolt kit that was missing parts and when we brought this to their attention, they said they would send replacement pieces. Upon receipt, the replacements didn't fit anything else in the kit so we were even more confused. We asked the vendor about this to which they replied that all of the kits in inventory were wrong and not even wrong the same way...some missing this, some that... Supposedly they contacted the distributor who said that they were going to remove the content list from the kits because they were changing what went in the kit!??! Our car is missing some pieces and the previous owner obviously used whatever he had on hand, so we aren't even sure how many or what type we are supposed to get.

We aren't trying to build a show car and we know there are many supply houses and there are many books, etc... Without showing the complete depth of our ignorance and hopefully without starting a favorites war, what is the best source of what type of bolt/nut/cotter pin/etc... to use where and is there a supply place that considers the pieces/parts to be their main forte? Thanks, Michael

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Hi Michael, don't know if anyone has told you yet but welcome to Fordbarn.

The two ways that I think are easiest is to use the original Ford Parts Price booklet (available in reproduction) along with Mick Isbell's Hardware Guide booklet. These two probably have the most information followed by the Judging Stds & Restoration Guidelines.

 

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I've had the same problems with even the best repro fasteners. I always prefer to find original nuts and bolts. the cotter pins from most aftermarket A vendors are pretty good, certainly better than those boxes of soft wire garbage from China. To find out which fasteners you need and the correct finishes, in addition to the parts books, research the Ford Chassis Parts and Accessories Catalog 1928-1948, AKA the Green Bible. Its all in there. Available from most A vendors

 

[CarlG]

For Cotter Pins, I made up my own kit from USA made cotter pins:

 

[tinmanlsu]

Thank you all for the great recommends! I think you guys are confirming what I suspected already...get the good books, study like hell, cheat off yours friends because the teachers(suppliers) aren't going to help if they can help it! I think the books you guys pointed out plus the ones I have and this new crutch, it will work itself out!
And thank you Mr Brent(and everyone!) for the welcome and for not making us feel as though we are intruding or less informed!!
Michael
and Naomi and Zachary...
(they said to include them on a few replies or get no more help!!)

 

[Mike V. Florida]

NEVER be afraid to ask a question here. Welcome.

 

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Thank you all for the great recommends! I think you guys are confirming what I suspected already...get the good books, study like hell, cheat off yours friends because the teachers(suppliers) aren't going to help if they can help it! I think the books you guys pointed out plus the ones I have and this new crutch, it will work itself out!
And thank you Mr Brent(and everyone!) for the welcome and for not making us feel as though we are intruding or less informed!!
Michael
and Naomi and Zachary...
(they said to include them on a few replies or get no more help!!)

Yo, Michael, Naomi, & Zachary,
Dog atcha' service Yes, I know Model A stuff & iffin' I don't know, maybe Ol' Bill will recollect somethin'! Or sumone else will know what you need to know!!----- Y'all got a Dog too? Buster T. (I'm a genuine Rat Terrier & our car is named VERMIN & when Ol' Bill gits the car driving, he's gonna take me to an old barn, east of town to HUNT RATS)

 

[Arlen]

People forget about this vender but Sacramento vintage makes up a lot of there own kits and often send them already coated black (I'm guessing to look like raven where needed). They have a huge catalog as well and offer some reproduction parts that the other more well known venders don't. You might also check with fordbolt.com

 

[Kevin in NJ]

You should be aware that you may not want to use repro fasteners for points and function.

Many of the reproduction fasteners are not shaped properly and stand out to anyone with experience.

Then there is the function problem.
Ford used precision manufacturing and many of the threads are a tighter tolerance then what you find today. A quick example would be the rods that go from the firewall to the radiator. The nuts and the threading on the rods are done to a tighter tolerance. If you try to use a die on the rods you will remove metal and the nuts will be looser. Add in using any non Ford nuts and they get real loose. Ford did this because it will allow those nuts to stay tight.
Then there is the nuts with tighter tolerance threading and extremely hard. A quick example are the nuts the hold the rear spring to the frame. Try a file on some originals, they barely make a scratch. Less scratch then a grade 8 nut. The threads are a tighter tolerance, run a tap through and see how the tap will get chewed up. Those nuts also have a specific color to them.

I know the supposed NOS screws from a major screws source that are for the cowl sides are not right. The heads and slot are different and they have a narrower shaft by the head allowing the original oversized inside lock washers to float too much.

So far all the new oval head screws I have seen are not the proper shape. The are too thick and the edges are rounded. Just look at the cross section of the originals. This is not too much of a problem as you can chuck up the screw in a drill and file the shape to be more proper.

A piece of advice. If you are not sure that the screw is a common lesser tolerance screw, like many of the trim screws, do not try to use a tap or die on the fastener. I hand clean the threads with wire brush or a pick.

So, if you are doing a show car for points you need to really think twice about any repro fasteners if you really want your car to look correct.
If you intend to actually drive your car then you really need to think twice about the modern fasteners as many will not do the job properly.

Lastly, do not throw away any screws. There are many restorers that would be happy to take that scrap metal off you hands and reuse them.

 

[Charles Reese]

For Cotter Pins, I made up my own kit from USA made cotter pins:

you have warmed this old OCD-afflicted guy's heart!

 

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

You should be aware that you may not want to use repro fasteners for points and function.

Many of the reproduction fasteners are not shaped properly and stand out to anyone with experience.

Then there is the function problem.
Ford used precision manufacturing and many of the threads are a tighter tolerance then what you find today. A quick example would be the rods that go from the firewall to the radiator. The nuts and the threading on the rods are done to a tighter tolerance. If you try to use a die on the rods you will remove metal and the nuts will be looser. Add in using any non Ford nuts and they get real loose. Ford did this because it will allow those nuts to stay tight.
Then there is the nuts with tighter tolerance threading and extremely hard. A quick example are the nuts the hold the rear spring to the frame. Try a file on some originals, they barely make a scratch. Less scratch then a grade 8 nut. The threads are a tighter tolerance, run a tap through and see how the tap will get chewed up. Those nuts also have a specific color to them.

I know the supposed NOS screws from a major screws source that are for the cowl sides are not right. The heads and slot are different and they have a narrower shaft by the head allowing the original oversized inside lock washers to float too much.

So far all the new oval head screws I have seen are not the proper shape. The are too thick and the edges are rounded. Just look at the cross section of the originals. This is not too much of a problem as you can chuck up the screw in a drill and file the shape to be more proper.

A piece of advice. If you are not sure that the screw is a common lesser tolerance screw, like many of the trim screws, do not try to use a tap or die on the fastener. I hand clean the threads with wire brush or a pick.

So, if you are doing a show car for points you need to really think twice about any repro fasteners if you really want your car to look correct.
If you intend to actually drive your car then you really need to think twice about the modern fasteners as many will not do the job properly.

Lastly, do not throw away any screws. There are many restorers that would be happy to take that scrap metal off you hands and reuse them.

Great info, Kevin, Thanks!
In order NOT to screw up tolerances in the head stud holes, with a cut off wheel I grind 3 or 4 slots in an original stud & use it as an OKIE TAP to clean the threads in the block. I welded a square nut on the top of the stud, so I could use my tap handle goody.
I had one short stud hole that had about 1/4" of threads missing from the top of the hole. By cleaning the remainder of the threads, which went quite deep, with my OAKIE TAP, I used a longer cable clamp stud & the height came out to the exact height of the shorter studs! (And I used my Famous BLUE Loctite, jist to "feel" good about it!
Bill W.