Non-flammable contact cement

W

wrndln

Well-known member
Has anyone used Weldwood non-flammable contact cement? I bought a quart about a year ago and just tried to use it to glue the frame webbing to the frame. First it didn't dry to a tacky state for over an hour (can says it should take about 30-40 minutes) and even then it dried quite unevenly. Then when I tried to mate the webbing to the frame, it bonded very poorly. I could easily separate the webbing from the frame, unlike when I have used original contact cement. I am very disappointed in the product. I have used the original Weldwood cement and it has worked well. The reason I decided to try the water based contact cement is I got some bubbles under the rubber matting when I installed runningboard matting on the runningboards for may 28 special coupe about 3 years a ago with the original smelly Weldwood contact cement. Any comments would be appreciated.
Rusty Nelson
 

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Rusty,
Water based contact glue is a good product if used properly. We used it for years for plastic laminate in our architectural woodwork business for worker health and safety reasons. Not knowing the conditions when you applied it, there could be several reasons it did not stick well. Since it is water based and not solvent, the water must evaporate and leave dry solids on the surface before the glue can work. Thus Weldwood's recommendation that it should be left for 30-40 min. (The product we used did not require near that much time). If the humidity is high or the temperature cold or the surface you are applying it to is colder than the air, the water evaporation will be slow or, in come cases, not occur at all. With really cold surfaces, and high humidity, you might even get condensation on the glue surface and it will never stick. Also, water based contact glue on metal surfaces takes longer to "set" since the metal is non-porous.

Bubbles under the rubber could be the result of not using a roller with enough pressure to bond the surfaces or it could be the contact glue was not sufficiently dry to allow all of the solvent to flash off. Once covered by the rubber, the solvent has nowhere to go and will cause a bubble as it expands. Solution to this is to pin ***** the bubble as soon as you see it and then use the roller to get the bubble to lay flat.

Glen
 
Rusty,

Do you want to do it the way Ford did it or your way?

I have in the works an article about the frame welting and other items releating to it.

In a nut shell, the welting was in two parts or strips, both sides, and a product that was used on the strips was Asphaultum.

I have used this on my 1929 Tudor chassis and very satisfied.

Pluck
 
Glen,
Thanks for the information you provided. I did wait for a warm day to try to install the webbing. It wasn't hot, but above 70 degrees - the can says to use it 65 degrees or above. I still need to install the webbing and will need to use some adhesive to install the 2 strips on the top of the frame. I did use original contact cement, the smelly stuff, on the frame of my 28 coupe about three years ago and it worked well. I thought I would try the water based type to see if it worked OK on the webbing before I try to install the rubber matting on the runningboards of my 29 phaeton this summer. When I installed the matting on the coupe's runningboards in the past, I did really bear down when using a roller to put pressure on the matting to bond it to the runningboard. You are probably correct in that there might have been some small places the contact cement wasn't completely dry and thus caused some gases/bubbles to form under the matting. I don't know how long the contact cement can be left to dry (allow the contact cement to totally flash off) before mating the two items and have it still bond well. When I install the matting on my phaeton's runningboards, I will let the cement dry a little longer than the 15 minutes the can says is needed before mating the matting to the runningboard.
Rusty Nelson
 
Steve,
What is the formula you used for the Asphaultum? Was it messy and hard to use? If it is like the roofing tar-like stuff I have used in the past, I get it on EVERYTHING when I have used it to glue down lifted shingles.
Rusty Nelson
 
I have used both the petroleum based and the water based Weldwood glue in my shop. For all of my uses, I find that the petroleum base works much better for my needs than the water base does. I have experienced the same probelms with the water based Weldwood of slow dry and poor adhesion. I no longer have any use for the water based Weldwood glue in my shop.
 
To "suck" air bubbles from vinyl roofs, we used a syringe to "suck" out the air & a syringe to inject a slight amount of adhesive & then use a small roller to "smooth" it down, while warming it with a hair dryer.
Bill W.
 
Rusty,
While we used water based contact glue in our shop for health and safety reasons, I much prefer the solvent based product whenever I do work on my own because it is easier to work with and less problematic as you have experienced. The time required to flash off solvent based adhesive depends on temperature, humidity, type of substrate, and how you apply it (brush, roller, or spray). A heavier coat will, of course, take longer to flash. Also, an old can that has been opened before will have less solvent in it, be thicker and will be ready to bond quicker. As a rule of thumb, as soon as you can firmly touch each surface with the palm of your hand and not have any of the glue stick to your hand, it's ready to bond. Working on a warm and dry day will allow you to bond before 15 min.
Glen
Glen
 
Glen,
Does the solvent based contact cement really have a shelf life? The can says one year, but I have found some companies put a shelf life on the product to try to get you to buy new product. I have a quart can with about 1/4 of the cement left and being frugal, hate to waste something that may still be usable. It is probably 3 or 4 years old. Again, thanks for the useful information. It has been sealed well in the can.
Rusty Nelson
 
wrndln said:
Steve,
What is the formula you used for the Asphaultum? Was it messy and hard to use? If it is like the roofing tar-like stuff I have used in the past, I get it on EVERYTHING when I have used it to glue down lifted shingles.
Rusty Nelson
Click to expand...

Asphaultum comes in a quart can. It is liquid and black. Ford used this stuff to impregnate the frame webbing OR as Ford called it Anti-Squeak. My February 1929 Tudor original webbing was as such.

It stated on the Part Releases and Drawings that the strips of webbing were treated with the asphaltum after the material was heated up to 185 degrese.

What I did was to cut the anti-squeak material into the correct lengths, punched the holes that are required in each strip, then applied the asphaltum to both sides of each strip (dipped the complete strip into the liquid), then let the strips hang to dry for a few days and then put them on the frame. The look nice and correct.

For you purists out there...Yes, there are two strips, each side, not one continous strip of anti-squeak.

Hopefully I can finialize this article soon...It is quite interesting...the rumble seat to trunk article got in the way of things.

Pluck
 
Rusty,
Personally, for the cost of a can of solvent based adhesive, it's not worth the trouble if you have to delaminate a bond when there is poor adhesion. While I have never tried to use 3 or 4 year old adhesive, I suspect it will have lost a good bit of its solvent. If it is thick, you could try mixing in a little lacquer thinner to make it useable. Then test a sample on your material to determine bond strength. Before writing this, I went to my garage and opened an old can of adhesive...only about 2 yrs old. It was solid! Probably not sealed well enough.
Glen
 
We have similar products we call contact adhesive. The spirit based ones work well but the water based ones are rubbish. I contacted the makers (Selleys) about it but received no reply. Guess they can't defend the indefensible. NEVER AGAIN WILL I USE THE WATER BASED ADHESIVE, in fact, I steer clear of Selleys products now
 
I use the 3M 1300L and it always works great, if its old add a little M.E.K. to thin it out and it still works great. holds rubber to aluminum at 400 miles per hour or leather to padding.
 
I like Bill's idea of using a hypodermic needle to suck out the air bubbles.

I'm also not fond of using water bases products.
 
I haven't had much luck with the water based stuff. I have found this: http://www.yourautotrim.com/noname37.html to be very useful. It only comes in gallons and it can't be shipped to some states. My original can died-but when you use it, there's too much air in a gallon can. I decanted it into several canning jars with the rubber ringed jar lids, filled as much as possible, and it's kept well-going on a year.

Hard to find an adhesive that will withstand auto use-very hot in summer inside a clkosed vehicle, very cold in winter in an unheated garage. This is about as good as it gets.
 
d.j. moordigian said:
I always thought this tool would be great for these jobs...
40122-1006-1-3ww-l.jpg
Click to expand...

I've never found a real use for a roller so still don't have one after doing trim work off and on for almost 40 years.

The problem Rusty described in his FIRST matting job was two-fold. First was inadequate flash/dry time so it hadn't fully gassed off. Second, was improper application of the rubber sheeting. There are tricks to it for sure (for proper alignment) but essentially you must start at one end and curl it down into place evenly so there is no way to create even the smallest air pocket.
 
Steve Plucker said:
Asphaultum comes in a quart can. It is liquid and black. Ford used this stuff to impregnate the frame webbing OR as Ford called it Anti-Squeak. My February 1929 Tudor original webbing was as such.

It stated on the Part Releases and Drawings that the strips of webbing were treated with the asphaltum after the material was heated up to 185 degrese.

What I did was to cut the anti-squeak material into the correct lengths, punched the holes that are required in each strip, then applied the asphaltum to both sides of each strip (dipped the complete strip into the liquid), then let the strips hang to dry for a few days and then put them on the frame. The look nice and correct.

For you purists out there...Yes, there are two strips, each side, not one continous strip of anti-squeak.

Hopefully I can finialize this article soon...It is quite interesting...the rumble seat to trunk article got in the way of things.

Pluck
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that the Asphaultum was heated and not the fabric! That of course would explain why virtually none of the Asphaultum color remained on the webbing as a very thin film was absorbed.
 
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