no numbers now what?

This has worked for me on several pitted frames:
Take a no. 2 lead pencil and some tracing paper(loose leaf notebook paper works) and do a rubbing.
If there are numbers you will see them materialize, wire brush the area first.
Did this on a frame that had been in the barn with rams(sheep). The other frame unknown but to the naked eye no legible numbers could be seen.
I repeated this for the local police officer who filled out the dmv forms.
Bob
 
Go to a different DMV. I have never found the Oregon DMV to be unreasonable.
Contact your state rep too.
A friend sent a letter of concern to the Oregon gov, the gov (kate Brown) sent him a handwritten letter, signed and mailed, just last week.
Restamping? If they give no choice and as far as I know the state police do not install Vin tags.
 
Serious Suggestion if you have "any" doubts:

1. Appears you have the proper legal paper work .... which is only a part of your battle plan ....... been there ..... done that ..... and after forwarding same to DMV as requested, I received a love letter from DMV's Nikita Khruschev top mad dog in a dress who would not budge for years.

2. Just stay calm, and remember that the title will never come from the local policeman ...... or from the local lady to whom you present your paper work ....... it has to be reviewed and approved by some individual at DMV headquarters, and hopefully a special knowledgeable supervisor who may be familiar with the legalities.

3. DMV "may" have one or two technicians who are somewhat familiar with vintage vehicle motor number title transfers; however, in 2015, many will not know what you are talking about and may be reluctant to act on same at local level.

4. Prior to calling for an actual vehicle inspection, and prior to sending "any" paperwork whatsoever, I would try Step 1:

A. Call DMV again and ask for a DMV representative at State Headquarters level who is familiar with transferring titles "without" modern VIN numbers and ask what procedures and what paperwork is needed when no VIN number is available ....... do "not" mention your not having a frame number or that a frame number may or may not be available ..... just "listen" and take notes.

B. If it sounds positive, say nothing after "listening" ..... get the person's name and telephone number and get ready for Step 2.

5. For the past 53 years, every time I had to have a Government Official's approval, it always depended on "who" does the reviewing ..... stay professional.

6. Also bought a Model A Town Sedan in Texas which came from New York with no title ...... only a New York registration number and no Texas title ...... contacted one nice DMV official .... it was easy-peasy .... piece of cake ..... just had talked to a different DMV Headquarters' Official with a "can do" personality.

7. Let us know what they recommend.
 
Might add to response #24 I had to go to Step 5 with my difficult 1930 Coupe title and did not have to use my military 533 MOS or my supervisory amphibious 1331 MOS.

After the dust settled, the DMV Headquarters Supervisor instructed me to "please" stamp my Model A title's engine/frame number somewhere on my coupe's chassis where it could be easily seen next time by any future deputy inspector so the body would not have to be lifted to verify said number.

You can bet I will personally stamp this original legal number where directed, on the center of the cross member near the seat, under the floor board.
 
silversink said:
I am the third owner, I have a title that is with the car, I have the original matching numbers engine (not in the car), I have paperwork from the late 30s that covers oil changes, registrations, plus after the car was parked in 1972 the owner bought tags and never put them on the car up until 1984, I was told by the State Police the number would have to be inspected before the Washington title could be changed to an Oregon title( same story at DMV), I tried to explain the eng. no. was the dominate no. and the frame was nothing but a number matching what ever number was on the eng. Been trying to do this on the up and up but now maybe its going to get a little shady. The title I got with the car is a legal not a bought title I'm thinking of putting the original eng. back in even though it doesn't run and call out the state poice again for one last try at doing it the right way.
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Sounds like it is time to put the original engine back in the car and try again.

Charlie Stephens
 
When I imported my car it had the engine number as the VIN on the PA title (legal) So I fitted a new chassis plate with the engine number and all was well. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the engine number is king for early cars. I don't see anything illegal in this method as opposed to stamping which I think could get you in a world of pain? But then what do I know :)
 
The outcome of "every" single legal decision experienced by an individual Government Employee interpreting a rule and rendering a legal decision will "always" be pure conjecture regardless of any State's written laws.

Today's members of our U. S. Supreme Court, (also Government Employees), cannot even render a 100% ruling on whether or not John Doe can marry his loving mule ........ whether it is male or female ..... Model A titles are no different.

Anyone in their right mind can only guess at the unknown differences of opinions and interpretations of individual Government Employees rendering a decision on obtaining a Model A title with correct legal paper work, with no number on the chassis, and with the "original" motor not installed.

Just very calmly try this Government Slot Machine, call DMV, "listen", offer nothing, and let us know ..... and please never give up.
 
Since you already have the ball rolling and they have asked you to pull the body to see the 'stamped' number in the frame, dropping the engine in, original to the car or not, ain't gonna help you.

If they want to see a frame number, give them one to see, it's not shady, nor underhanded, everything you have is legit, you just can't see the 'stamped' number. There is no box on the frame to have a pinpoint location. Get the correct font stamp set, not from HF and lightly stamp it. They just want to see the number. It ain't like you're covering up a murder!

Here is s pic of one of my frames, not too pitted, but the only number visible is an 8. You can bet your a** when time comes this frame will have the correct font serial stamped in it!
 

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Steve Wastler said:
As Mitch says, stamp your own, stamp sets run about 160, get the correct font, stamp them light near where you and the officer were looking, smear some paint over it so it stands out/disguise it. I have read the number has been seen on the outside or inside the rail on a few frames.
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And unfortunately what you are suggesting is very much illegal.
 
Franchise_24 said:
And unfortunately what you are suggesting is very much illegal.
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Thank you, of course it is illegal ! It is like telling someone how to make moonshine! You have no risk because when they are caught they pay the penalty ! Do it right and you don't have any worries! Wayne
 
Mitch//pa said:
yep and i dont think the engine number even matters.. as long as you have a title with a vin
most engines have been swapped out anyways
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Generally true if you buy within the same state. In Ohio, if you buy an out Ohio vehicle, you have to have an "Out of State inspection" of the VIN. My car was title in PA, and so they had to see the VIN (Block number). Ohio permits car dealers to perform the inspect and depending upon their mood may actually do it... In the end, a little greasing of the gears in this arena helps :)
 
My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.
 
H.L. Chauvin has some great advice here for dealing with the DMV that is applicable here in Oregon as well. My experience is that you will find a DMV office located in a rural area to be easier to deal with than one in Portland, Eugene, or (gasp!) Salem. If they give you a hard time, go to another DMV office. Unfortunately, your situation is complicated by the transfer of title from another state, which can raise questions in the mind of the DMV official. Having an engine number that matches the Washington title is very helpful.

I spoke with a guy that has restored several Model-A's that were pulled from barns or assembled from parts. Two cars had no title or currently traceable Oregon registration but he did have a bill of sale on both. The first time he went to the DMV and the official noted in a book that Ford stamped numbers on the frame and engine. Because the car was assembled from parts and had no engine number (it had a Model-B engine), he assigned a new DMV registration number and attached an adhesive backed metallic tag to the driver's side motor mount and issued a new title. This was back in the 1990's so that may not be the practice any more.

With the second car he took the DMV's lead on the matter and stamped the engine number into a visible part of the driver's side motor mount . At the DMV he pointed out this number as the frame number which was good enough for the DMV. Again, this was in a small town where the DMV office was easier to work with. The current reality is that restorers these days are having to deal more often with cars having no matching frame and engine numbers and may end up with a only a salvage title on an otherwise well-restored vehicle.
 
Skeezixx said:
My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.
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Guess we'll be seeing you behind bars, where you will be stamping out our new license plates.:eek::D:p
 
When I registered my car in Oregon years ago they just used the engine number and gave us a sticker for the door jamb. Not sure what dad said to DMV but when moved her to Ca. I told them that is what Or. gave me and they took it.

Mike
 
Skeezixx said:
My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.
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i'll be a model A buddy and drop you off some VAS..
 
PS looks like half of us are going to Sing Sing and the other half to heaven..............


hahahahahahaha!
 
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