new vs old

pooch

pooch

Well-known member
In a few years, there will be many new brookville bodies on the road as older "restorations".

I wonder what their value will be then, compared to original steel bodies?

Will people want a 2010 non-bondoed/non-panel patched car or an original, albeit with its probable patches and repairs?

I have not seen a new body, what is the quality and fit like?
 
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Most people are up front about the fact that there is Henry iron and "Brookville" I think more Rodders than Restorers are buying Brookville products. They make a nice body, and will sell all the bits to restore an original. You don't have to have years in the hobby to tell the original from a Brookville.I'm sure all the Model A "Fine Point" guys know every nook and cranney of the Brookville and may even have a list of features to check. I know the cowl side panel lacing bead is way off when I placed the originals I removed along side the Brookville part. Not a problem on my project, but it is a telltail feature.
 
IMHO, I think those truly interested in Model A's will pay a premium for true A bodies. I am glad our hod rod cousins are using the Brookville. Saves originals.
 
Respectfully, my personal experiences counters what 'Roadster' and 'PC/SR' opinions are. (and their opinions are OK too)

We just finished "restoring" a '28 Roadster with a camouflaged Brookville body that right now is in a container on a ship going overseas to its owner. We are about half done with another "restoration" that is using a Brookville body, ...and we are speaking with another gentleman about doing a DeLuxe Roadster that will use a new body. I also have sold several Brookville bodies to 'Restorers', ...some even lurk on here! Many of them ask us to conceal many of the tell-tale giveaways of the reproduction bodies. Before you cry "Foul" please allow me to put this into perspective.

How can this be an issue when many of you reading this have no problems whatsoever regarding buying/installing a new Rootlieb reproduction hood, or new A.A.S. reproduction body (splash) aprons, or Gaslight reproduction front fenders, --or Albrect reproduction rear fenders, ....and you have no issues with using new reproduction doors, or a reproduction deck lid, or repro curtain pans, floor pans and seat risers, and you without issue will use cowl patch panels or incorrectly-made repro inner fender panels, or "XXX". Then, many folks will alter those reproduction items to camouflage it in an attempt to make it appear authentic.

I trust you see my point in that very few Restorers have any remorse whatsoever regarding purchasing and using reproduced sheetmetal (other than the remorse when trying to make it fit!:() on their Model A that they tout as "restored". I also find that Buyers generally are not interested in this nonsense as long as it looks correct to them and it performs as they perceive it should. If a new DeLuxe Phaeton body, or a reproduction Coupe body or Conv. Sedan body were being offered right now, you would see Restorers buying and building them too as restored Model 'A's.
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I agree with you Brent, down to the point that under one of my cars will be a repro chassis, at least the side rails will be. There's some silly rules here in Victoris and NSW which say a rod has to use an original chassis. This is driving up the prices for an original. The rules also allow a repro chassis under a restored car. As a repro is half the price that originals are at the moment in Australia. The car it's going under is not being judged, and the rails are slightly thicker than the originals on the outside dimension making it slightly stronger than an original for a closed body, its going under my car without a second thought. I'll keep my original chassis for the coupe which I hope to finish to a good enogh standard to be judged one day
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Respectfully, my personal experiences counters what 'Roadster' and 'PC/SR' opinions are. (and their opinions are OK too)

We just finished "restoring" a '28 Roadster with a camouflaged Brookville body that right now is in a container on a ship going overseas to its owner. We are about half done with another "restoration" that is using a Brookville body, ...and we are speaking with another gentleman about doing a DeLuxe Roadster that will use a new body. I also have sold several Brookville bodies to 'Restorers', ...some even lurk on here! Many of them ask us to conceal many of the tell-tale giveaways of the reproduction bodies. Before you cry "Foul" please allow me to put this into perspective.

How can this be an issue when many of you reading this have no problems whatsoever regarding buying/installing a new Rootlieb reproduction hood, or new A.A.S. reproduction body (splash) aprons, or Gaslight reproduction front fenders, --or Albrect reproduction rear fenders, ....and you have no issues with using new reproduction doors, or a reproduction deck lid, or repro curtain pans, floor pans and seat risers, and you without issue will use cowl patch panels or incorrectly-made repro inner fender panels, or "XXX". Then, many folks will alter those reproduction items to camouflage it in an attempt to make it appear authentic.

I trust you see my point in that very few Restorers have any remorse whatsoever regarding purchasing and using reproduced sheetmetal (other than the remorse when trying to make it fit!:() on their Model A that they tout as "restored". I also find that Buyers generally are not interested in this nonsense as long as it looks correct to them and it performs as they perceive it should. If a new DeLuxe Phaeton body, or a reproduction Coupe body or Conv. Sedan body were being offered right now, you would see Restorers buying and building them too as restored Model 'A's.
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Good point Brent. Sure is better than not be able to build a car or having a crappy looking car when it is done.
 
Thanks Brent, I respect your opinion and it is good to know that your able to build a proper "restored" car with an aftermarket body, after whatever corrections are needed. I guess my overall opinion is that there is more value to many in the REAL DEAL, be it the body on a G.P. Bugatti or a Model A Ford Roadster.
 
Roadster62 said:
Thanks Brent, I respect your opinion and it is good to know that your able to build a proper "restored" car with an aftermarket body, after whatever corrections are needed. I guess my overall opinion is that there is more value to many in the REAL DEAL, be it the body on a G.P. Bugatti or a Model A Ford Roadster.
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I appreciate your warm kudos however in sad reality, I am not really sure that is all that correct of a statement anymore. I am not finding buyers that truly feel like there is more value in the "REAL DEAL" cars. It used to be that people wanted everything (engine, drivetrain, sheetmetal, paint, upholstery, etc.) all original appearing when they bought something. That isn't the case any longer. It doesn't matter if it is a converted faux DeLuxe Roadster with an incorrect non-leather interior, stainless steel top irons with tan fabric, --or a Coupe painted unauthentic colors that has been "DeLuxified". The only things that are seemingly important to most Model A buyers these days are;
1) Initial curb-appeal (pretty color or restoration),
2) Nice enough interior that his wife is not embarrased by the condition,
3) Mechanically reliable where the car will start & drive when the owner desires.

...THAT matters most and if the car does those things, then he is satisfied. Heck, even MARC/MAFCA 'Restorers' these days have no concerns with bolting on "fork lift" carburetors, alternators, tube shocks, hydraulic brakes, 16" wheels, etc. and attending Club events with that type car. Forty years ago when I was a kid attending these same type events, no one dared to be seen doing stuff like that at a Model A club outing. You can see the direction it is going, ...and so add another 20 years from now to see what the priorities will likely be. Sadly, I'm not real sure the phrase "real deal" will even be a topic of that conversation.
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BTW, this may come as a shock to many but if you were to poll all of the owners of Model A's that are for sale on eBay right now, I would venture a guess that only 10%+ are even MARC/MAFCA members. Sadly, very few of my customers are MARC/MAFCA members, ...and many do not see the value of it for them. If you were to tally up the count of all non-street rodded Model 'A' owners in the world to see if they are National Club members, what would that percentage be?

For the ones that are not members --or are not receiving either Club's magazine, how can these folks educate themselves on what is authentic or not when looking to purchase a Model 'A'? How many (what percentage?) do you suppose even care about authenticity? I feel most of them have the attitude that if it looks authentic to them, and meets the 3 criteria above, then it is "the REAL DEAL".

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Like any discussion there are numerous permutations of possible correct answers. Brent you hit on a lot of them, and your observations remind me of my grandfather who was a finish carpenter. He had what he called (always with a slightly devilish grin on his face)"the best hammer I owned. I've replaced the head twice and the handle three times.......".

Another key concept is attrition......not so much of original bodies, but of people who will put a higher value on an original Ford piece as opposed to a reproduction. There will always be some number of people who will take a high level of satisfaction and personal achievement in aquiring "an original". But as the pool of enthusiasts who can identify with any given object, in this case a Model A, declines in number so will the demand. At some point the distinction will be lost on all but the most fanatical of "collectors". Future enthusiasts will have a lot to choose from as they'll have fewer competitors seeking the same or similar thing that they are. If they're very picky they may have to search a bit more, but should be able to find what they want. If they become the dominant trader in that future market, and stick to their preference for original steel, then the repop guys will be a more distant second tier. The real "losers" will be the (dare I say) fiberglass bodied/parts owners, or more likely their heirs (I hear someone shouting "...and they deserve it too":)).
 
For the most part I agree with Brent. As time goes by the distinction will become more and more blurred. As an example, 30+ years ago the vast majority of Model A owners "wouldn't be caught dead" with a 12v system much less an alternator on their Model A. Look at this today and most newcomers to the hobby are being taught (falsely) that it's normal and necessary for a reliable driver. Similarly, most roadsters being "restored" today with reproduction bodies are done by relative newcomers to the hobby and done so with positive (or at least neutral) guidance from others. As time goes by and the number of such vehicles increase, and the generation of hobbyist shifts, it will become more and more "normal".

With that said, if such a vehicle was offered for sale today it would be very wise from a legal standpoint to disclose the fact that it's reproduction as it indeed differs from what is the norm today. Additionally there will always be a number of discriminating buyers that will gladly pay a premium (hefty premium at times) for cars that stand out from the norm. Basic authenticity will be an important factor for many.
 
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