New Engine from Todd?

nkaminar said:
Tod, Thanks for the info. Do you have a website with photos?
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I do not have a website. I usually sell out of everything I make, even if I double the amount of castings I make. A website might tend to overwhelm my capacity. I post pictures on my Facebook page (and Model A pages there), here, and VFF. As it stands, my shop has at least a 5 month backlog, and I am getting more work all the time.


Tod
 
The only area that I feel we have a strong difference of opinion on is the machine work. In my past, I used a Model-A engine rebuilder that seemingly had as many failures with his engines as he had good ones. Not only did this negatively affect my business' credibility, -it was expensive for us to make good on his failures. The brutal reality was that our customers did not care that someone else (outside of my company) manufactured the component, -or did the work, ...as they expected ME to stand behind the workmanship that ultimately came thru my shop. Because of this alone, we no longer trust anyone else's workmanship on projects that our name is attached to. That is why we prefer to do the machine work on certain areas so the craftsmanship meets our standards. Nothing I am saying implies that your engines or components have Q/C issues. All I am saying is that for my customer's project, we choose to either verify or perform the machine work ourselves so the onus is on us if there is an issue.


Brent,

Thanks for your comments.

I know who your engine builder was and I'm so happy that you no longer use him because of the 50% failure rate you were obligated to warranty.

I will not mention your rebuilder's name, but you endorsed him in an earlier FordBarn post.

Regarding your machine work, I'm happy that you are now rebuilding Model A engines in-house.

Are your machines accurate to 4 decimal places?

Can you explain to FordBarn members how you verify that a Model A cylinder block is rebuildable?
Steve Becker at Bert's finds that 1 out of 12 engines are economically rebuildable and can be guaranteed.
How do you verify that the pan rail has not been machined in the past?
How do you verify that the upper deck is parallel to the pan rail?
How do you verify that the cylinders will be perpendicular to the pan rail?
How do you remove rust deposits from the water jacket?
How do you verify water jacket wall thickness?
How do you verify that there are no fatigue cracks in any of the parts?
What is your remedy for worn camshaft bearings?
Do you add material to restore original surfaces or do you remove material?

Your reply with answers to the above questions is very important.

What is the cost of a rebuilt engine from you and what is your guarantee?

All of these questions are very important for you to answer because it will help people make decisions about whether to have you or others rebuild an original engine or buy a "New Engine".

If you don't reply, people will have a hard time making a decision.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
 
Terry Burtz said:
Brent,

Thanks for your comments.

I know who your engine builder was and I'm so happy that you no longer use him because of the 50% failure rate you were obligated to warranty.

I will not mention your rebuilder's name, but you endorsed him in an earlier FordBarn post.

Regarding your machine work, I'm happy that you are now rebuilding Model A engines in-house.

Are your machines accurate to 4 decimal places?

Can you explain to FordBarn members how you verify that a Model A cylinder block is rebuildable?
Steve Becker at Bert's finds that 1 out of 12 engines are economically rebuildable and can be guaranteed.
How do you verify that the pan rail has not been machined in the past?
How do you verify that the upper deck is parallel to the pan rail?
How do you verify that the cylinders will be perpendicular to the pan rail?
How do you remove rust deposits from the water jacket?
How do you verify water jacket wall thickness?
How do you verify that there are no fatigue cracks in any of the parts?
What is your remedy for worn camshaft bearings?
Do you add material to restore original surfaces or do you remove material?

Your reply with answers to the above questions is very important.

What is the cost of a rebuilt engine from you and what is your guarantee?

All of these questions are very important for you to answer because it will help people make decisions about whether to have you or others rebuild an original engine or buy a "New Engine".

If you don't reply, people will have a hard time making a decision.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Click to expand...


Oh goodness Terry, this seems like we are playing games on a 3rd grade level, ...and from my vantage point maybe should not be discussed in an open format on someone else's platform. With that said, I will honor your request and answer some of your questions in generalities which might potentially assist others in making the right decision for themselves.

Yes we do offer a warranty (-which I feel is one of the best in the industry). Yes, I own quality engine machining equipment capable of holding tolerances into the tenths. Additionally we are likely adding a CNC machining center to our equipment line which potentially could raise our level of craftsmanship past the amount of decimal places you asked about. We also use both a wet & dry magnetic particle inspection tester, a sonic tester, and thermo-pressure testing equipment to check for some of your concerns listed above. And yes, we do have other specialized equipment that we oftentimes use to correct and/or repair wear/damage to each piece of the customer's project.

FWIW, unlike some other shops (-and maybe that applies to you too) we have our own equipment to use inside of our own facility for the sole purpose so we do not need to rely on the craftsmanship (i.e.: machine work) of an outside source which at times can be found to be inferior and/or outside of acceptable specifications which cause Q/C issues at a later date. Many of us can attest to having first-hand experiences with this type work which left a bad taste in our mouths.

One other point that I feel should be considered about my shop is that we are 'Restorers' and not just parts exchangers. Not everyone that we assist has the desire, -nor the option to replace their engine block. We want to be problem solvers to those who may not feel your product is a good solution for them. Therefore we are just trying to be full-service shop offering a value to a customer with their engine rebuilding needs. Nothing in my post should be construed as detrimental or derogatory to you and/or your products(s).
 
GeneBob said:
Thank you all for the information. I will be finding out more from Tod directly, I hope. I just put a supercharger onto my 1930 Tudor and would like to build an engine with 5 mains and better oiling to withstand the increased loads. This is not an immediate project, just an expectation that the original engine will not last forever.
Nothing against the Burtz engine, I think he has accomplished a fantastic feat in bringing the engine to production and everyone who has one seems to love it. I was hoping to find an engine that is not manufactured in China.
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Gene, I know what you mean about the China stuff. The problem is that we (USA) make almost nothing any more. It jumped up and bit us hard when the pandemic hit. We can not turn the ship on a dime, and it will take time to undo all of that.

Every time I need a new pair of tennis shoes it kills me to shell out that money for something made in Vietnam. Vietnam if all places. They tortured our POWs for fun. Let me say that again, just for fun. They tortured a few of them (along with help from the Cubans, arranged by the Russians) to death. No I have not forgotten. Any time I can buy something made in the USA I do, even if it costs a little more.

Gene (the other Gene LOL)
 
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BRENT in 10-uh-C said:
Oh goodness Terry, this seems like we are playing games on a 3rd grade level, ...and from my vantage point maybe should not be discussed in an open format on someone else's platform. With that said, I will honor your request and answer some of your questions in generalities which might potentially assist others in making the right decision for themselves.

Yes we do offer a warranty (-which I feel is one of the best in the industry). Yes, I own quality engine machining equipment capable of holding tolerances into the tenths. Additionally we are likely adding a CNC machining center to our equipment line which potentially could raise our level of craftsmanship past the amount of decimal places you asked about. We also use both a wet & dry magnetic particle inspection tester, a sonic tester, and thermo-pressure testing equipment to check for some of your concerns listed above. And yes, we do have other specialized equipment that we oftentimes use to correct and/or repair wear/damage to each piece of the customer's project.

FWIW, unlike some other shops (-and maybe that applies to you too) we have our own equipment to use inside of our own facility for the sole purpose so we do not need to rely on the craftsmanship (i.e.: machine work) of an outside source which at times can be found to be inferior and/or outside of acceptable specifications which cause Q/C issues at a later date. Many of us can attest to having first-hand experiences with this type work which left a bad taste in our mouths.

One other point that I feel should be considered about my shop is that we are 'Restorers' and not just parts exchangers. Not everyone that we assist has the desire, -nor the option to replace their engine block. We want to be problem solvers to those who may not feel your product is a good solution for them. Therefore we are just trying to be full-service shop offering a value to a customer with their engine rebuilding needs. Nothing in my post should be construed as detrimental or derogatory to you and/or your products(s).
Click to expand...

Cracks, the cylinder bores, and or the crank journals too small....these are the real things that jump up and bite a person on rebuilds.
 
Making the larger main bearing caps is yes expensive time consuming. The real work is machining the block to match. Solution is grinding the "B" crank main bearings to "A" crank size and go from there. I have one in my latest engine build and is working fine.
 
BrianH said:
Making the larger main bearing caps is yes expensive time consuming. The real work is machining the block to match. Solution is grinding the "B" crank main bearings to "A" crank size and go from there. I have one in my latest engine build and is working fine.
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IMO, grinding the B crank journals back to A sizes leaves you with nothing more than an A crank with counterweights added. Why not use a new A crank and have new, unfatigued steel? They are available from the vendors. I have been using a Burlington crank on inserts for years now and it has been fine.
I think the thicker journals of the B crank are a BIG improvement on the skinny A journals. Henry didn't spend a cent he didn't have to and he realised that he had to use a stronger crank in the B engine.
Machining the block is no big deal. Once the new caps are roughed out (the faces that contact the block machined, the crank tunnel cut a little undersized and holes drilled), they would be bolted in place and the whole shebang line bored ready for insert bearings. The same bearings as Terry Burtz specifies for his engines will fit nicely for the main bearings and I have other inserts in the big ends of my B engine. I can't remember what the 1 7/8" inserts are out of but both mains and rods are 0.020" undersized in my engine. The same thing grafted into an A block would result in a quite serviceable engine, IMO.
 
Synchro909, the "B" crank I have had already been machined quite a bit. So going to Model A size was no worry. I cut the mains down to 1.625. The crank still has the thicker casting and as cast counterweights, so I think I'm still ahead of the game with it. The "B" crank is 2 inch main and rods stock. I have another "B" crank stock size waiting for a "B" engine build. Although I do have a Burtz engine that will be next. Can you still get a Burlington crank? I know you can get a Scat crank but about $2k I think.
Machining the block like that and making the caps would be very costly unless you could do it yourself. Also trying to find a machinist wanting to do it.
Regards, Brian
 
Gene F said:
Cracks, the cylinder bores, and or the crank journals too small....these are the real things that jump up and bite a person on rebuilds.
Click to expand...

Something that often is overlooked in this is this hobby has seen a 180° degree turn in the mindset of restoration in the last few decades where now hobbyists just want to replace and/or modify rather than restore. Items such as 'numbers matching' (which was once a big thing) or trying to restore a car as authentically as possible seemingly has changed where some hobbyists do not understand that 'restoring' still has favor by some hobbyists. Technology today makes restoring older engines even more possible. If something is jumping up and biting the person during a rebuild, then generally speaking, the machinist did not clean, wet & dry magnaflux, pressure test, and sonic test the components during the evaluation portion PRIOR to beginning the machining processes.



BrianH said:
Making the larger main bearing caps is yes expensive time consuming. The real work is machining the block to match. Solution is grinding the "B" crank main bearings to "A" crank size and go from there. I have one in my latest engine build and is working fine.
Click to expand...

Brian, the only thing I will caution you on about grinding the journals from 2.000" to 1.625" is when you remove 3/16th of an inch off of each side of the journal pin, you are well below the heat treated portion of the pin which makes the surface very soft. Often times the reason why this was never much of a problem was if the rebuilder used a softer alloy of Babbitt to support the journals. Therefore, if someone wants longevity either with correct Babbitt composition, -or with insert bearings, then the crankshaft really needs to be Nitrided which will give about a 0.030" surface hardness.
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C,
Thanks for that information. I did not think of, nor did I realize I would be compromising the hardness of the crank. I'll check with the person that did the Babbitt and see what composition he used. I doubt the crank grinder did anything to re-harden the crank. Although the crank journals were flawless with good radius in the corners. Worst case I tear down the motor to have the crank Nitrided as you suggest.
Regards, Brian
 
BrianH said:
Synchro909, the "B" crank I have had already been machined quite a bit. So going to Model A size was no worry. I cut the mains down to 1.625. The crank still has the thicker casting and as cast counterweights, so I think I'm still ahead of the game with it. The "B" crank is 2 inch main and rods stock. I have another "B" crank stock size waiting for a "B" engine build. Although I do have a Burtz engine that will be next. Can you still get a Burlington crank? I know you can get a Scat crank but about $2k I think.
Machining the block like that and making the caps would be very costly unless you could do it yourself. Also trying to find a machinist wanting to do it.
Regards, Brian
Click to expand...

I see no reason why going to some other size larger than 1.625" wouldn't work. All it takes is to find an engine that had journals if that size. If the main bearings say, were chewed up, why not take them down to 1.875" and use the inserts that are in my rod bearings. Chewed up rod journals could be taken to say, 1.75. I would keep the journals as big as possible for the sake of rigidity.
I believe the guy who was doing the Burlington cranks has retired so unless someone steps up with lots of $, that will be the end of them. I don't think there was much difference between them and the Scat crank other than the Burlington being cheaper and the main bearings being 0.002" smaller than standard. Special inserts were available.
The costs associated with doing that conversion is why I haven't done it. I bought a Burtz engine instead.
 
So I have a C crank in a model A block
My criteria was to leave the crank as large as possible without having to move the main bolts nor notch the inserts or bolts
This allowed for the crank to remain at 1.850 diameter mains and leave about.005 wall between the bore and bolts per side

It is just so much easier to use a B block and make it full pressure system

J
 
Gene F said:
Gene, I know what you mean about the China stuff. The problem is that we (USA) make almost nothing any more. It jumped up and bit us hard when the pandemic hit. We can not turn the ship on a dime, and it will take time to undo all of that.

Every time I need a new pair of tennis shoes it kills me to shell out that money for something made in Vietnam. Vietnam if all places. They tortured our POWs for fun. Let me say that again, just for fun. They tortured a few of them (along with help from the Cubans, arranged by the Russians) to death. No I have not forgotten. Any time I can buy something made in the USA I do, even if it costs a little more.

Gene (the other Gene LOL)
Click to expand...

Hey Other Gene,
I refuse to buy anything made in Viet-f*ng-nam. I always check before I buy. I found a helmet in a Harley dealer that was made there and I asked the manager if she knew who her customer base was!
Anyway, I was asking about the Tod effort and spoke with him just to find out if there was a USA made option. Apparently, the work Tod does is spoken for far in advance of the manufacturing. I am happy for him but wish I could get one of his blocks.
Brent, Tod mentioned a desire for more capacity if your machine shop has capacity, maybe you could help him expand?
Terry, please don't take offense at my questioning a USA choice. I really wish you could take your block to a USA casting house but I understand your Chinese source has a lot of investment committed to producing high quality parts for you and you want to keep your loyalty to a good supplier.
 
It’s nice to have choices in regard to the Model A projects of today. I could not imagine this would even be a possibility when we had the Coupes original engine rebuilt by our local A specialist back in 1978 - wouldn’t have dreamt of the choices these talented gents are offering today.
I say thank you to one and all for your talents and services. Long live the A Ford and a special salute to the long gone Oklahoma gentleman that built up our still in service original A engine. I wonder what Cecil would have thought of the options he could pull from today…….?
Thank you CDK - she’s still pulling strong.
 
GeneBob said:
Apparently, the work Tod does is spoken for far in advance of the manufacturing. I am happy for him but wish I could get one of his blocks.

Brent, Tod mentioned a desire for more capacity if your machine shop has capacity, maybe you could help him expand?
Click to expand...

Tod & I have spoken some regarding me doing the machine work and him doing the castings however it never really went that far. I do think that most Model-A engine shops would rather purchase a new block semi-finished (that is how many companies that manufacture aftermarket blocks & heads sell them.) where they can do the final machining to their own liking.
 
I spoke with Tod this past week and he is not making anymore blocks either iron or aluminum. That's too bad, I had just gathered up all my bottle caps to try and buy an 5 main aluminum block. Does anyone know if anyone making an aluminum 5 main block?
 
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