New Clutch - Balanced?
- Thread starter oldspert
- Start date
J Franklin
Well-known member
While things are apart it would be wise to have the assembly balanced. you might luck out not doing it but it's never fun to tear it down after the fact.
J and M Machine
Senior Member
There will be no witness marks on the new pressure plate because it is not balanced.
It is a good idea while you have it apart to have Flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit. You'll be surprised how far off it may be.
https://www.jandm-machine.com/balancing.html
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Hello Spert,
I also bought one from a supplier I had trusted since 1971. Surprise! THe flywheel balance was still dead on, but the NEW pressure plate was so far out that my longer-time-trusted local competition engine builder told me he would not be able to do ANYTHING to balance it, and offered an opinion that it was "cheap C... s...". Sympathetically, he blanchard ground a used plate, helped select and test a set of used original springs, and when I assembled the whole pressure plate cover assembly, he checked that the assembled pressure was within the Service Bulletins' specs. It balanced dead nuts and went on the flywheel, still good. (Thanks again for caring,"Joe').
I called the present owner, and heir, of the trusted supplier. " That's impossible, he said . My people and I would NEVER send out something like that! You must have tampered with it!" He offered to let me pay to ship it back, and would look at it. No consideration of a refund, but I could buy another one, and pay shipping. Three shipping trips out and back was pretty close in cost to the listed price of another one of the same CCS, so I kept it.
I took it apart, and the half the springs, adjacent on one side of the assembly, were one color. The rest,on the other side, were a different color, and heavier. They each tested at 60 to 75 lbs at 9/16" compressed on trusted 'Joe's' professional spring tester, like used valve springs. For amusement I reassembled the whole, the same way, and put it on an engine on a stand with a trans and used a load cell to find a foot pedal pressure of 110 lbs. Ford claims "you would only need 35 lbs. to release the clutch" (foundI in service bulletins ,manuals, and period advertising lit.
So much for that supplier ( someone known and loved by all, so far). What would all that do to my rebuilt engine's thrust bearings?
Looking for the wisdom to know the difference,
ARDVAARK
PS: "Of course those trans roller bearings are US made, perfectly good quality."
And again, "The copper clad manifold gaskets aren't available right now. The ones
we sell will be all you need".
I also bought one from a supplier I had trusted since 1971. Surprise! THe flywheel balance was still dead on, but the NEW pressure plate was so far out that my longer-time-trusted local competition engine builder told me he would not be able to do ANYTHING to balance it, and offered an opinion that it was "cheap C... s...". Sympathetically, he blanchard ground a used plate, helped select and test a set of used original springs, and when I assembled the whole pressure plate cover assembly, he checked that the assembled pressure was within the Service Bulletins' specs. It balanced dead nuts and went on the flywheel, still good. (Thanks again for caring,"Joe').
I called the present owner, and heir, of the trusted supplier. " That's impossible, he said . My people and I would NEVER send out something like that! You must have tampered with it!" He offered to let me pay to ship it back, and would look at it. No consideration of a refund, but I could buy another one, and pay shipping. Three shipping trips out and back was pretty close in cost to the listed price of another one of the same CCS, so I kept it.
I took it apart, and the half the springs, adjacent on one side of the assembly, were one color. The rest,on the other side, were a different color, and heavier. They each tested at 60 to 75 lbs at 9/16" compressed on trusted 'Joe's' professional spring tester, like used valve springs. For amusement I reassembled the whole, the same way, and put it on an engine on a stand with a trans and used a load cell to find a foot pedal pressure of 110 lbs. Ford claims "you would only need 35 lbs. to release the clutch" (foundI in service bulletins ,manuals, and period advertising lit.
So much for that supplier ( someone known and loved by all, so far). What would all that do to my rebuilt engine's thrust bearings?
Looking for the wisdom to know the difference,
ARDVAARK
PS: "Of course those trans roller bearings are US made, perfectly good quality."
And again, "The copper clad manifold gaskets aren't available right now. The ones
we sell will be all you need".
Terry Burtz Calif
Senior Member
Every original part in a Model A engine was balanced separately and any assembly of parts in any orientation was in balance.
There were no match marks in an original Model A engine and there are no match marks in any modern engine.
It is not a good idea to have parts balanced together.
Instead of balancing parts separately, some engine rebuilders cut corners to increase profit and balance everything as an assembly.
This quickie balance job works great until something needs to be replaced.
When a replacement part is needed on a rebuilt engine where everything was balanced as an assembly, everything needs to come apart and be rebalanced again as another assembly with new match marks.
Please avoid rebuilders that insist on balancing assemblies instead of balancing individual parts.
There were no match marks in an original Model A engine and there are no match marks in any modern engine.
It is not a good idea to have parts balanced together.
Instead of balancing parts separately, some engine rebuilders cut corners to increase profit and balance everything as an assembly.
This quickie balance job works great until something needs to be replaced.
When a replacement part is needed on a rebuilt engine where everything was balanced as an assembly, everything needs to come apart and be rebalanced again as another assembly with new match marks.
Please avoid rebuilders that insist on balancing assemblies instead of balancing individual parts.
Last edited:
Old 31,
When I repeat this story, I try not to name their name. I see defensive posts in other threads, and it usually goes on and on. It wasn't Bert, Mark gear, or Bratton's. The clue is who died and the business goes on, and the formerly great T&A catalog (my opinion only) now SOMETIMES warns "imported". I'd rather not have to defend myself, because I honestly, absolutely, been there done that-have the old CSS parts to prove it (no T shirt or pictures) ,know what was done, and only want others to be careful. If enough people realise they weren't the only one (four subjects: pressure plates, copper manifold gaskets, and the famous transmission bearings AND, I've recently been reminded- "If the parts weren't good would Fomoco have licensed them?" ), it hopefully will become common knowledge, like with Rick's and Medicine Bow Motors, without naming names. No 'he said-she said', economics lessons, or excuses (or accusations of sour grapes,axe grinding, or customer incompetence trying to blame the supplier).
Often when complaints are made, the complainer becomes the bad guy. Please don't do that to me. (I see yard signs-"Be kind")
RDVAARK
When I repeat this story, I try not to name their name. I see defensive posts in other threads, and it usually goes on and on. It wasn't Bert, Mark gear, or Bratton's. The clue is who died and the business goes on, and the formerly great T&A catalog (my opinion only) now SOMETIMES warns "imported". I'd rather not have to defend myself, because I honestly, absolutely, been there done that-have the old CSS parts to prove it (no T shirt or pictures) ,know what was done, and only want others to be careful. If enough people realise they weren't the only one (four subjects: pressure plates, copper manifold gaskets, and the famous transmission bearings AND, I've recently been reminded- "If the parts weren't good would Fomoco have licensed them?" ), it hopefully will become common knowledge, like with Rick's and Medicine Bow Motors, without naming names. No 'he said-she said', economics lessons, or excuses (or accusations of sour grapes,axe grinding, or customer incompetence trying to blame the supplier).
Often when complaints are made, the complainer becomes the bad guy. Please don't do that to me. (I see yard signs-"Be kind")
RDVAARK
Phil Brown
Well-known member
If they can be balanced as a unit they can also be balanced individually
Terry is correct, some shops balance as a unit to save time as they balance one "unit" insted of two things
My $0.02 worth:
While Terry is correct, I think that he assumes an ideal world wherein every component is balanced perfectly. He also seems to presume that any changes to parts since original manufacturing have been done properly. But in practice there is a bit of leeway that a slight bit of "imperfection" is not noticable. Here is where assembly balancing comes in. There are multiple ways to mount components - a flywheel can go onto a crankshaft in either of two positions, and a pressure plate can go onto a flywheel in either of three positions (V-8 clutch) or twelve positions (Model A clutch). If the out-of-balance points oppose each other, then the imbalance is cancelled. However, if they line up with each other due to mounting, then the imbalances add.
If you already have your engine disassembled, I believe it would be prudent to balance each component separately starting with the oscillating components, then the rotating components individually. The new Burtz crankshaft and flywheel come separately balanced. First start with the crankshaft - recognizing that the original A crankshafts were not balanced, so that any added weights since original will need to be dialed in. Then with the crank on the machine, add the flywheel. Move the mounting of the flywheel around until imbalance is minimized. Add the pressure plate and do the same. Place witness marks as appropriate. Kind of tedious, but in the end you will preserve the individual balances that way and have as smooth a running engine as possible. This is also where you can determine if the pressure plate has been properly balanced at the manufacturer/rebuilder, as was apparently not RDVAARK's case.
If you do have to replace a component in the future (most likely the pressure plate will be the first to go) then you can either repeat the last step, or assume the pressure plate is close enough that it won't make a difference (which, in reality, is what most of us do anyhow).
While Terry is correct, I think that he assumes an ideal world wherein every component is balanced perfectly. He also seems to presume that any changes to parts since original manufacturing have been done properly. But in practice there is a bit of leeway that a slight bit of "imperfection" is not noticable. Here is where assembly balancing comes in. There are multiple ways to mount components - a flywheel can go onto a crankshaft in either of two positions, and a pressure plate can go onto a flywheel in either of three positions (V-8 clutch) or twelve positions (Model A clutch). If the out-of-balance points oppose each other, then the imbalance is cancelled. However, if they line up with each other due to mounting, then the imbalances add.
If you already have your engine disassembled, I believe it would be prudent to balance each component separately starting with the oscillating components, then the rotating components individually. The new Burtz crankshaft and flywheel come separately balanced. First start with the crankshaft - recognizing that the original A crankshafts were not balanced, so that any added weights since original will need to be dialed in. Then with the crank on the machine, add the flywheel. Move the mounting of the flywheel around until imbalance is minimized. Add the pressure plate and do the same. Place witness marks as appropriate. Kind of tedious, but in the end you will preserve the individual balances that way and have as smooth a running engine as possible. This is also where you can determine if the pressure plate has been properly balanced at the manufacturer/rebuilder, as was apparently not RDVAARK's case.
If you do have to replace a component in the future (most likely the pressure plate will be the first to go) then you can either repeat the last step, or assume the pressure plate is close enough that it won't make a difference (which, in reality, is what most of us do anyhow).
J and M Machine
Senior Member
QUOTE:” When a replacement part is needed on a rebuilt engine where everything was balanced as an assembly, everything needs to come apart and be rebalanced again as another assembly with new match marks.
Please avoid rebuilders that insist on balancing assemblies instead of balancing individual parts.”
Yes, every part was balanced in a Model A engine but that was 90 plus ears ago and everything has been swapped replaced or remachined. Unless you find a bone stock original time capsule.
Where I have shown in my previous post of flywheel and clutch assembly being balanced as a unit.
Only the clutch and flywheel need to be rebalanced come the time that
Flywheel would need to be resurfaced or ring gear needing replacement.
Only part needing removal from the engine would be flywheel not entire engine as mentioned above. Then at this time they will have "witness marks ", once properly balanced.
It is impossible to balance the entire rotating assembly as a unit,
Crankshaft/clutch/flywheel as an assembly contrary to what was mentioned.
Please avoid rebuilders that insist on balancing assemblies instead of balancing individual parts.”
Yes, every part was balanced in a Model A engine but that was 90 plus ears ago and everything has been swapped replaced or remachined. Unless you find a bone stock original time capsule.
Where I have shown in my previous post of flywheel and clutch assembly being balanced as a unit.
Only the clutch and flywheel need to be rebalanced come the time that
Flywheel would need to be resurfaced or ring gear needing replacement.
Only part needing removal from the engine would be flywheel not entire engine as mentioned above. Then at this time they will have "witness marks ", once properly balanced.
It is impossible to balance the entire rotating assembly as a unit,
Crankshaft/clutch/flywheel as an assembly contrary to what was mentioned.
Terry Burtz Calif
Senior Member
It doesn't matter if parts have been swapped, replaced, or re-machined.
Balance the flywheel all by itself.
If you need to use the flywheel to to hold the pressure plate for balancing, balance the combination by removing weight from the pressure plate only.
The result is 2 parts that are each in balance.
Balancing parts separately like it is done in factories takes a little longer but makes life much easier for a customer that wants to change one of the parts in the future.
Balance the flywheel all by itself.
If you need to use the flywheel to to hold the pressure plate for balancing, balance the combination by removing weight from the pressure plate only.
The result is 2 parts that are each in balance.
Balancing parts separately like it is done in factories takes a little longer but makes life much easier for a customer that wants to change one of the parts in the future.
J Franklin
Well-known member
I had Edelbrock balance my flywheel and PP. I don't know their process but the assembly was returned with alignment marks and worked very well.
The OP's comments regarding the clutch springs is :
"They each tested at 60 to 75 lbs at 9/16" compressed on trusted 'Joe's' professional spring tester, like used valve springs. For amusement I reassembled the whole, the same way, and put it on an engine on a stand with a trans and used a load cell to find a foot pedal pressure of 110 lbs. Ford claims "you would only need 35 lbs. to release the clutch" (foundI in service bulletins ,manuals, and period advertising lit."
In a nine page 2003 article titled, "The Model A Pressure Plate", D.J.Voyce details the construction of the pressure plate as well as its dismantling, reassembly, and adjustment. He recommends the use of a valve spring tester to check the springs pressure and says that each spring "should take around 100 lbs to compress the springs at 1 9/16".
He further notes that Ford part # B-7562 are the replacement springs for the Model B pressure plate with a slightly stronger spring at 110 lbs at 1 9/16 and offers it as a replacement for the Model A pressure plate if the "A" springs are unavailable..
I have searched the Service Bulletins but find no reference or directive regarding clutch plate spring pressure so am interested in any other credible information regarding this device. I have noticed that most of the clutch rebuilders in my part of the country have gone out of business, a concern that mirrors an issue facing many parts sources for others in our hobby.
"They each tested at 60 to 75 lbs at 9/16" compressed on trusted 'Joe's' professional spring tester, like used valve springs. For amusement I reassembled the whole, the same way, and put it on an engine on a stand with a trans and used a load cell to find a foot pedal pressure of 110 lbs. Ford claims "you would only need 35 lbs. to release the clutch" (foundI in service bulletins ,manuals, and period advertising lit."
In a nine page 2003 article titled, "The Model A Pressure Plate", D.J.Voyce details the construction of the pressure plate as well as its dismantling, reassembly, and adjustment. He recommends the use of a valve spring tester to check the springs pressure and says that each spring "should take around 100 lbs to compress the springs at 1 9/16".
He further notes that Ford part # B-7562 are the replacement springs for the Model B pressure plate with a slightly stronger spring at 110 lbs at 1 9/16 and offers it as a replacement for the Model A pressure plate if the "A" springs are unavailable..
I have searched the Service Bulletins but find no reference or directive regarding clutch plate spring pressure so am interested in any other credible information regarding this device. I have noticed that most of the clutch rebuilders in my part of the country have gone out of business, a concern that mirrors an issue facing many parts sources for others in our hobby.
Dan McEachern
Senior Member
I recently has a pressure plate that required the addition of significant weight in order to correct the unbalance condition. Yes, the PP was balanced after the flywheel. This was a new USA manufactured V-8 pressure plate from a major vendor. Sometimes ya gotta do what you gotta do. The weights were tig welded into the PP cover after the final test spin. Due to the amount of unbalance, adding weight to the light side was the only way to make the correction, as there was no way to remove that much weight from the heavy side. You can't really blame the supplier for this. Don't ever make assumptions regarding engine balancing- everything needs to be checked.
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J Franklin
Well-known member
Yow!
Terry Burtz Calif
Senior Member
WOW!!!!, your new USA manufactured pressure plate has serious balance problems. Have you considered using one of the new V-8 pressure plates manufactured in China?