Old Henry
Well-known member
Here's the result of those holes and other modifications: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143576
Hotter on the top end and colder on the bottom end. Don't do it.
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Need for thermostats??
- Thread starter 34fordy
- Start date
Here's the result of those holes and other modifications: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143576
Hotter on the top end and colder on the bottom end. Don't do it.
JSeery
Member Emeritus
Henry that may have had a lot more to do with the anti-freeze that was available than optimum running temperature of the engine. Don't confuse practical considerations and thermodynamics.
Quote from Ford Shop Manuel (49 - 52 F1 Truck): "The cooling system used on trucks is the pressure type, having a regulated pressure of 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 pounds maintained in the system while in operation. With this pressure system, the coolant is allowed to reach a higher boiling point. This higher coolant temperature reduces the loss of energy to the coolant and also assists in decreasing internal friction by maintaining a higher lubricating oil temperature."
It is just amazing how folks want to argue with the laws of thermodynamics.
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Old Henry
Well-known member
For the benefit of 34fordy, who originally asked whether or not to use thermostats, here is my real world comparison of using them vs. not using them to show the difference: http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113979
blucar
Well-known member
An old saying holds true with the subject of thermostats.. " Don't confuse me facts, I already have my mind made up"....
I have ran my '36 Ford coupe for over 94k in the 62 years I have owned it. I have driven the car in blizzards through the Inter-Mountain West, the Nevada desert during my two year stay in that state, and the freeways and surface street traffic of Southern California.
I have used nothing but permanent type anti-freeze/coolant, and/or water with soluble oil, during all of these years/miles. The radiator is still the original one that was in the car when I bought the car in 1952, therefore I would assume that it is original to the car. I have recently noted that the heater core, (a 1939 unit) has a damp spot on the lower corner, guess it needs attention.
Thermostats can be a problem, in 1955 I was returning to Vegas from a trip to Los Angeles. Pulling the Baker Grade, sea level to over 4K, the stat in the right head stuck in the closed position, I limped into Haloran Springs, about halfway up the grade with a blown head gasket on the right bank. Bought a new head gasket and a can of Permatex gasket sealer. The repair held until Jean NV, bought two head gaskets in Jean, removed the right head, installed two head gaskets with a liberal amount of Permatex.. Made it home in Vegas.
We pulled the heads the next day, took them to the machine shop, the right head was badly warped, time for a new set of Offy heads.
Footnote:
I still carry a set of Weed-V-Bar snow chains in the '36, which I bought in Idaho Falls in 1950. The grille cover winter front is also still in the trunk.. Hmmmm?
I wonder, what am I doing wrong?
I have ran my '36 Ford coupe for over 94k in the 62 years I have owned it. I have driven the car in blizzards through the Inter-Mountain West, the Nevada desert during my two year stay in that state, and the freeways and surface street traffic of Southern California.
I have used nothing but permanent type anti-freeze/coolant, and/or water with soluble oil, during all of these years/miles. The radiator is still the original one that was in the car when I bought the car in 1952, therefore I would assume that it is original to the car. I have recently noted that the heater core, (a 1939 unit) has a damp spot on the lower corner, guess it needs attention.
Thermostats can be a problem, in 1955 I was returning to Vegas from a trip to Los Angeles. Pulling the Baker Grade, sea level to over 4K, the stat in the right head stuck in the closed position, I limped into Haloran Springs, about halfway up the grade with a blown head gasket on the right bank. Bought a new head gasket and a can of Permatex gasket sealer. The repair held until Jean NV, bought two head gaskets in Jean, removed the right head, installed two head gaskets with a liberal amount of Permatex.. Made it home in Vegas.
We pulled the heads the next day, took them to the machine shop, the right head was badly warped, time for a new set of Offy heads.
Footnote:
I still carry a set of Weed-V-Bar snow chains in the '36, which I bought in Idaho Falls in 1950. The grille cover winter front is also still in the trunk.. Hmmmm?
I wonder, what am I doing wrong?
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FlatheadTed
Well-known member
In my experience a lot of the time thermostats will not work the engine will run hot particularly in the summer .A lot of the time the Radiators are blocked or inefficient poor design .With blocked Radiators there are many and varied fix's and most of them work to various degree there are shrouds ,pressurising , removing blades of the rotor ,restrictors in the hoses ,six blade fans, high flow pumps ect .Example in the picture this car was dumping water and running around 200 F due being blocked we added this 41b pressure tank in an emergency because I could not get it cleaned /Rodded out ,after that it ran down at 140 . After that we added drake high flow pumps and the tank was not needed but a clean out would have solved the problem .For thermostats you need a very efficient Radiator so it opens and shuts to keep the motor up to temperature .if the Radiator is not efficient the thermostat will be open all the time trying to cool particuly if its a low rated one .I like soluble oil as antifreeze become acidic after a year or so and will eat Aluminium heads like you wouldn't believe .Ted
Attachments
Ted you mentioned restrictors in the hoses. That's exactly why your engine ran hot with the stats. The stats you used had a small opening where the coolant flows through and act like a washer type restrictor. The stats Bob Shewman uses, Robertshaw 330-180 have a large flow opening where almost a full flow is provided. The water pumps you used don't provide much more coolant flow than stock Ford pumps. Stock pumps of the 37 to 48 type pumps deliver 65 gallons in 5 minutes, the ones you have are maybe 70 gallons each in 5 minutes. Skips pumps with the turbine type impeller delivers 110. Everyone he does is tested on a water pump test machine and everyone checks out at 110 gallons and is recorded in his test record book. Don't be fooled by advertisement words. G.M.
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
You will notice in parade traffic that if you lift engine RPM the temperature will come down the reason for this is the fan is running a lot more air through .if it doesn't then you have a problem with your Radiator ,On your modern car you will hear the fan come on and move lots of Air sitting at the lights .A shroud does a similar thing ,Ford thought they nailed the problem by moving the pumps down to push in 1937 but its still pumping into the top tank and if there are restrictions it will pump it out ,all 41b does is keep the water in ,The cooling is only as good as the air flowing through .Ted
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
I stand to be corrected here but I think the increase in boiling point doesn't come into play until the engine is at 212 F ?? Ted
JSeery
Member Emeritus
That would be correct, don't have to worry about boiling over until you reach the boiling point. However, 212° is only the magic number at sea level. I was just responding to the comment about the only thing the 4 lb valve is doing is retaining water, it is doing that and increasing the boil over point. 4 lbs should raise the boil over temperature to around 225° at sea level.
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
OK J .
of topic but I was wondering if Blue car Bill struck Vapour lock in all the 90.000 miles ,Ted
of topic but I was wondering if Blue car Bill struck Vapour lock in all the 90.000 miles ,Ted
Heard
Well-known member
OK. I'm confused here. I ain't no expert for sure, but at some point pumping more water is useless. Sure you're moving more water but that also means the water spends less time in the radiator to cool AND less time in the block to pick up more heat. G.M., just exactly where is that point?
Obviously, Henry Ford thought 65 gpm was good enough. I'm sure he could have built pumps that would have delivered more, but he didn't. So what gives???
JSeery
Member Emeritus
Who did you upset? It doesn't bother me if people run without thermostats or with 160° thermostats or whatever they want, they are their cars. If someone ask a question I try to answer them and provide a little engineering/science to rationalize the answer. But, I'm not an inspector or part of the car police! I try to roll with the flow, Hot Rod, Race car, or Restoration, you own the car and can do with it as you please. LOL Believe that is the same attitude of most of the folks on the Barn.
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The output of the stock pumps and Skips turbine impeller pumps are related to RPMs. When I built the water pump test machine I used an old motor that was laying around. It was a 3,400 RPM motor and after 15 years of use the motor when bad. Skip put a 1,700 RPM motor on and the
output of the pumps dropped exactly in half. Don't know exactly the output at very low speed or idle but maybe we can loosen the belt and with a hand held tachometer get an idea of how much is moving through the engine at low speed. The engine is like a gas fired hot water heater the more gas applied the " flame" being the time of the ignition heats the pistons like a big frying pan. The oil splashing up on the bottom of the pistons go's up in temperature faster than the water temperature. This was demonstrated in a motor home I had with digital gauges and an oil temperature gauge. On large hills the oil temp went up as I pressed on the gas, the water temp slowly followed with a delayed start. G.M.
AND the amount of water in the system AND the amount flowing through system and radiator. You were 1/3rd correct. G.M.
The boiling point of the water has nothing to do with keeping a flatheads temperature below 200 degrees. If it gets much over 200 you better get moving faster so forced air cools it. If that don't work you have a mechanical problem. G.M.