Lets talk leakless water pumps!

I have thought about a "Leakless" pump having just gone through some trials with my stocker. My only apprehension comes from the "Factory Sealed" bearing that never needs greasing. If you have ever taken one of these apart you'll probably be amazed at how little grease the factory put in them. That being said, no one has mentioned a failure on the front bearing either. My stocker is hold water now, thanks to some new packing string laced with a little wax and some graphite powder, so my money is still in my jeans. Pending discussion outcome, I'll hold off on buying a "Leakless" for now.
Thanks for the thread!
 
Little more info from Wikipedia on bearings.

100px-Needle_bearing.jpg

Needle roller bearings use very long and thin cylinders. Often the ends of the rollers taper to points, and these are used to keep the rollers captive, or they may be hemispherical and not captive but held by the shaft itself or a similar arrangement. Since the rollers are thin, the outside diameter of the bearing is only slightly larger than the hole in the middle. However, the small-diameter rollers must bend sharply where they contact the races, and thus the bearing fatigues relatively quickly.


100px-Angular-contact-ball-bearing_single-row_din628_type-b_120.png
Ball bearings use balls instead of cylinders. Ball bearings can support both radial (perpendicular to the shaft) and axial loads (parallel to the shaft). For lightly-loaded bearings, balls offer lower friction than rollers. Ball bearings can operate when the bearing races are misaligned. Precision balls are typically cheaper to produce than shapes such as rollers; combined with high-volume use, ball bearings are often much cheaper than other bearings of similar dimensions. Ball bearings may have high point loads, limiting total load capacity compared to other bearings of similar dimensions.


100px-Cylindrical-roller-bearing_din5412-t1_type-n_ex.png

Common roller bearings use cylinders of slightly greater length than diameter. Roller bearings typically have higher load capacity than ball bearings, but a lower capacity and higher friction under loads perpendicular to the primary supported direction. If the inner and outer races are misaligned, the bearing capacity often drops quickly compared to either a ball bearing or a spherical roller bearing.
Roller bearings are the earliest known type of rolling-element-bearing, dating back to at least 40 BC.
 
i have had 2 of Jim Ruperts XD pumps and one of his originals. I have also used the pumps by Snyders, Brattons and one I got in Portland made by a fellow in Washington. All except the XD need grease on the rear bearing. They work well on generator engines with clean water, but grease in the radiator bugs me, so I got the first XD from Jim in 1995. It lasted over 20k miles and 8 years in 3 different engines . It failed most likely because i forgot to put prestone rust inhibitor in the radiator one year and the rust ruined the ceramic seal. Jim asked for it back so he could do an analysis, and he found rust particles in the seal. Jim insists there be no rust as the particles will wreck the ceramic seal. The block and radiator must be well cleaned and have rust inhibitors in the water. The pump I have in the S/W has been in it for 5 years on a new radiator and boiled out block and has 26,000 miles with no problems. The XD has a machined pump body that has an extra large bearing to withstand the stress of tight alternator belts. I like the greaseless feature a lot. My radiator is clean as a whistle. I use Sierra anti freeze in winter, and distilled water with Prestone anti rust in summer. Both products lubricate the seal. I have not tried the recent greaseless pumps from the other guys. Most customers do not mind having to grease the pump if it saves them some money.
here's Jims website and a pic of the XD pump:
http://www.leaklessapumps.com/
XDWeb.pdd.jpg
 
Let me throw another question into Elrod's great thread:

Which of the leakless pumps still use the contact point between the end of the shaft and the inside of the head for end-play control like the original? If it is not needed on some designs, why have the long stub beyond the impeller?

I bought a leakless with a locked shaft 3 years ago (don't remember from who) and it was a bit too long to fit into my new Brumfield head, so I just sawed off the useless end of the shaft. The missing shaft stub didn't disrupt the water flow and it was way easier to get the pump in with the radiator in place.
 
Mike's.

4 years

No maintainence

No drips

Never even look at the thing anymore

Run 50/50 and distilled (+ Water Wetter in Summer), flush out twice yearly.

As long as the fan belt holds (broke Sunday after 2 years), needle never rises above SAFE level.

Money well spent.
 
I have used 2 or 3 of Rex Rehis water pumps without any problems for a long time. In the last few years I have purchased a few of James Rupert's pumps with good results. In the next month I will purchase an air conditioner from ?? in Texas. I anticipate that this will be a higher load on the water pump. I had not given this any consideration in the possible selection of a water pump. In anothe post someone mentioned the higher load capacity of roller bearings vs. needle or ball bearings. Does anyone know who uses what or do I need to make some phone calls?

Vic
 
GREAT POST Pat in Santa Cruz!! (Hey! That's where I was born!) Thanks for sharing your experience and some great info!


glenn in camino said:
There is no such thing as leakless forever. Do what you do with most other Model A parts, carry a spare.
Click to expand...

I hear ya! No matter how nice the parts, I've learned to travel with spares and that is why I was going to order two!
 
I used the Snyder's "Leakless Water Pump" kit to rebuild my water pump. 3 years and 15K miles later it is still working perfectly. I was concerned about the no grease part, but so far so good.
 
Anyone have a problem sucking in air at the water pump shaft seal at high RPM with any of these water pumps?

I suspect that the ceramic seal would be best in this situation.

The neoprene seals are chevron style pointing in, which holds pressure well but does not hold back air from entering...
 
Jim/TX said:
Anyone have a problem sucking in air at the water pump shaft seal at high RPM with any of these water pumps?

I suspect that the ceramic seal would be best in this situation.

The neoprene seals are chevron style pointing in, which holds pressure well but does not hold back air from entering...
Click to expand...

The rear bearings with seals I've seen advertised are double lip, so they seal from both directions.
 
Elrod said:
PS - If the grease is easily coming past the front seal out toward the packing nut after you remove the packing nut, don't you think there is possibility that the same amount of grease is also going out the back seal that has no packing nut there either, only coolant? My other thinking is that there is no place for that grease to go, so shouldn't it not require much more greasing beyond when it's assembled, and beyond that, maybe a tiny little squirt maybe once a year, or couple of years depending on the amount of driving?
Click to expand...

That's a good question. I greased the water pump before installing it to see where the excess grease would go. I only observed grease coming out the packing nut end and not the impeller end. I just assumed from that result that the bushing seals must be toward the impeller and that there aren't any between the grease fitting and the packing nut, thus allowing it to exit there. That might be an incorrect assumption since I didn't take the pump apart to find out for sure.
 
The water pump write up from Mike's makes it a point to say that the impeller is pinned. I don't see that mentioned in any of the catalog text for the other water pumps. How important is that? If a new impeller is not pinned, what is the best way to add that? What pin do you use?

Do you still need to grind some of the tip of the 3 impeller blades off, or is that old folk lore?
 
The $125 water pump from Snyder's is leakless and greaseless but, it looks NOS. They even offer the two different style packing buts. The shaft is a press fit so there is no need to worry about end play or the contact boss in the head. Best of all it's made in the USA by RMJ International (www.rmjinternational.net) near Cleveland, OH!!! Our club toured their facility last year and they are great people. I've had one on my car for 2 years and over 12,000 miles with no problems. I run water and Water Wetter.
 
Jim,
I have drilled and pinned the impellor. Most impellors are so tight I'm sure they would never come loose, but for the time it takes to pin one I don't want to be the guy that looses a water pump and radiator because it did come loose. Just drill a 1/8" hole through the impellor and shaft and install a 1/8" rod a bit longer than the hole and peen both ends.
 
My friend has a totally leakless pump on his and it doesn't take any grease, front or back however after 1000 miles it is squeeling like a banshee and has to be replaced. I don't know which vendor made the pump and won't know where the problem bearing is until we get it apart. He plans to go back to the original style and use the adjustable packing nut (for what it's worth).
 
I have had a Snyders leakless pump on the roadster for about 4 years and 3000 miles. Zero leaks.

Ora Landis recommended and installed it back then and I don't recall all the particulars about it. I believe it has the lip seal at the rear & permanently-lubricated needle bearings at the front. I know it has the two fake grease fittings and stainless steel shaft. Absolutely maintenance-free.

Still has no detectable axial or radial looseness.

I have always run 50/50 antifreeze/water. It definitely does improve lubrication of the rear pump seal compared to water alone (aside from all the other benefits that antifreeze provides for the cooling system).

If the bearing quality, tolerances and installation are done right, the needle bearings are superior to ball bearings because they have a larger contact area with the shaft to distribute the radial loads - compared to the small point-contact of ball bearings. Needle bearings are intended for applications involving higher radial loading such as produced by the fan belt tension. But they are way more intollerant of any shaft misalignment.

You will always extend the life of a water pump - especially its front bearing - by running the fan belt at the very lowest tension necessary to keep the pump and generator spinning without slippage under typical driving conditions.

Also, any imballance in the fan will act to increase abuse of the front bearing and lead to early failure. But a needle bearing will take the "abuse" longer.

Since I am a "belt + suspenders" guy, I like the earlier tip on adding a drop of oil to the pump shaft at two places on the leakless pumps. Makes sense. Gonna start doing it.

Earle
 
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