Leak less Water Pump Question

psimet

psimet

Senior Member
I received a leakless pump a few years back as a gift. I don’t have the paperwork or the instructions anymore. About to install it in a new engine. I know it came from Snyders.

To my knowledge there is a few designs out there. Also I don’t believe just because it is leakless that it is maintenance free. I know there was a cartridge bearing behind the fan.

The rear “packing” is hand tight. There are these two rubber seal packs behind it.

Can someone identify this specific pump/kit and let me know if there is any maintenance I need to do for it? I know I don’t need to pump the front end with grease as it is a maintenance free sealed bearing and the grease fitting is for looks but does this style or rear seal need the water pump grease?
6dfd2b4e38277e54b86219e3236ae961.jpg
 
Well...curiosity got the better of me and I just called Snyders. It's their 8502 pump and it needs any grease - not necessary to have waterpump grease as it's not in the water. Back the packing off and pump until you see it come out the front. Never tighten down the packing unless it's an emergency and you need to limp home. Just posting this here for anyone else who may be searching for an answer in the future.

Can erase the thread if needed. Will be fun to watch all the answers that come in from those who don't read it all. :D
 
For a while the brass bearing with two seals was available separately for those wishing to create their own "leakproof" pump. This may be still the case.

Of course keep in mind the two seals are a "knife edge" seal and designed to create an annular seal around the shaft. Those seals will eventually wear a groove into the shaft.

So while "leakproof", it is not "forever." Not like any seal system ever is.

And hence the value of the brass nut to return the seal to Ford's design with a string or two of packing.

Ford actually had a Model A water pump variant which depended on a "face seal" design borrowed from the later V8 water pumps. You can see these on various pumps presented on Ebay for rebuild - although the face seal might be difficult since there are so few parts available from the parts vendors. (i.e. the face seal has not been reproduced.)

I'll bring over an Ebay picture here - although it won't last as the reference picture will eventually get removed as the object sells.

s-l500.jpg


Note the "caged" impeller similar to the V8 Pump - and the front bearing which is but a bronze sleeve. And no "packing gland" that can be adjusted - or backed up.

THIS was Ford's mid-30s solution to a "rest of the car life" water pump.

Joe K
 
SEE photo in Post #1:

Are you sure that those two rubber "seals" are not made of lead?

1. These lead seals are for rebuilding OEM Ford stock pumps and for stopping leaks in original pumps: Do not add an additional lead seal UNLESS tightening the brass nut SLIGHTLY fails to stop leak.

https://modelastore.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3832

As mentioned in the Service Bulletins the brass nut needs to be tightened slightly when a leak starts and a small amount of grease applied to the zerk.

1/8th of a pump of grease gun will lube the shaft bearing.

Pumping any more than this only puts grease into the water jacket and radiator.

Note for future readers:

Warning do not use water faucet COTTON string stem packing on water pump.

2. Hardware stores sell faucet stem sealing string for old time faucets and are made of cotton string and coated with powdered lead.

This is cotton string coated with powdered lead and is NOT designed for a water pump shaft which is continually turning. It is for a shaft which is not turning all the time.

Use of string packing will quickly over heat and score the shaft.

Don't ask how I know this!

At least this is my experience SINCE the early 1960's.
 
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Yes, I’m sure they aren’t lead. They are rubber seals and as mentioned they’re a lipseal. That’s great info though!
 
The lip seals are sold separately, for those of you compelled to rebuild rather than replace.

And yes, the brass "seal carrier" is now available separate from the "kit."

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/product.htm?pid=979264&cat=

A-8520-SEAL.jpg



Note that this is a quality "spring backed" seal, which is the preferred way to do it rather than a "live" seal (i.e. depends on the hydraulic action to keep the knife edge following the moving part.)

Too many years following power plant pump practice.

Joe K
 
Here are notes from Snyder website:


NOT a comment by Benson!

WATER PUMP LEAKLESS 30-31 STAINLESS NUT
Part # A-8503-B | Model Year 30-31
Pump has a sealed ball bearing in the front and uses a stainless steel shaft with a snap ring in front of the bearing to prevent end play.

Back end of the pump uses the A-8512-BR/ZR cartridge that we sell. The positive aspect of this pump is that you never have to grease it. The drawback is, if the seals ever fail in the cartridge, you don't have an original nut with packing for a back-up like you do with our A-8502 style leakless pump.

The impeller is the cut down version. Grease fittings are for appearance only, gasket and fan mounting kit are included. One year warranty. 4-bolt design. Zinc pack nut for 1930-31.
 
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Interesting. Snyder's A-8512-BR/ZR is a "simulated" packing nut that is pressed into the rear of the water pump. No thread hence no possibility to turn/tighten for use as a back up seal, but it comes with the guarantee against leakage.

Almost more mouse traps than mice.

Joe K
 
Benson said:
The impeller is the cut down version. Grease fittings are for appearance only, gasket and fan mounting kit are included. One year warranty. 4-bolt design. Zinc pack nut for 1930-31.
Click to expand...

I expected that by now, people would have realised that cutting down the impellor does NOT improve anything. Who ever heard reducing the effectiveness of a component improves the efficiency of the over all system?
I've heard people say that the water circulates too quickly with the original pump and therefore does not spend enough time in the radiator to cool down. The flip side of that is, the water does not spend enough time in the block to get hot.
The idea that a trimmed down impellor reduces overheating is IMO, nothing more than just another old wives tale. I don;t think Snyders does their reputation any favours by perpetuating it.
BTW, those rings shown in the first picture of this thread are lead/graphite rings that should be used just like the original packing was. Make sure you load them with grease as you assemble it.
 
I've heard that cutting down the impeller reduces the "head" in the top tank - and thereby tends to cut down any water thrown down the overflow.

Of course Ford in the Service Bulletins advised "bending" the overflow pipe to not be located in the stream coming up from the water pump.

I put a piece of rubber hose on the top end of the overflow pipe to further elevate the overflow. That pretty much ended the problem.


Joe K
 
PSImet - I chuckle to think you received it as a gift. Maybe you should regift it to some unsuspecting Model A person and rid yourself of it. Kind of like the Monkey’s Paw.
 
Joe K said:
I've heard that cutting down the impeller reduces the "head" in the top tank - and thereby tends to cut down any water thrown down the overflow.



Joe K
Click to expand...

I've heard similar but wonder how can that be when every drop of water pumped into the top tank comes from the bottom tank (via the engine)? That means for every drop entering the top tank, the level has been dropped by the same amount (via the radiator). All of that is assuming that there is no cavitation or increase in coolant volume by say, boiling it.
IMO, none of that theory makes sense.
 
Bob C said:
Those are not lip seals, they are graphite seals.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/product.htm?pid=979269&cat=41793
Click to expand...


Thanks. Correct. The rest of the comments are fun.

There’s a lipseal behind these. In the housing. As told to me by Snyders this morning.

These have been out for many years so not sure why people are thinking they’re something new.

I did run this on my previous engine with no issues. I also ran the original one with no issues. [emoji2369]
 
psimet said:
Yes, I’m sure they aren’t lead. They are rubber seals and as mentioned they’re a lipseal. That’s great info though!
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for response.

I just thought they look a lot like the lead seals, since they are have spiral (angled) splits like lead seals and rubber seals are one piece!

Could it be that photo is created by "AI" ???
 
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Joe K said:
I've heard that cutting down the impeller reduces the "head" in the top tank - and thereby tends to cut down any water thrown down the overflow.

Of course Ford in the Service Bulletins advised "bending" the overflow pipe to not be located in the stream coming up from the water pump.

I put a piece of rubber hose on the top end of the overflow pipe to further elevate the overflow. That pretty much ended the problem.


Joe K
Click to expand...

I totally agree here. Cutting impeller vanes down is not needed.

I have been using several radiators with the Service Bulletin page 450 installed for the last 60 years with NO coolant loss out over flow.

Also have also used the rubber hose method to stop coolant out the overflow pipe.

I have driven 65,000 miles during that time and have NEVER had to add coolant.

I check the level from time to time but it is NEVER low.

The only time I add Coolant is when changing coolant every 5 years or so.
 
Please explain, I don't understand "Also have also used the rubber hose method to stop coolant out the overflow pipe."

Are you adding an inch or 2 of hose on the top of the overflow pipe in the radiator?
 
old31 said:
Please explain, I don't understand "Also have also used the rubber hose method to stop coolant out the overflow pipe."

Are you adding an inch or 2 of hose on the top of the overflow pipe in the radiator?
Click to expand...

That would be YES, in fact brings the opening up to just below and into the screw on top cap.

It's like "push the hose down and then apply the cap" sort of application.

Joe K
 
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