Krw dist tool VR-126 question

Don

Don

Well-known member
Found a chart on VP site saying the dist contact PERCENT of points being closed for 35-36 is 60% which works out to 27* of dwell.On the later years the percent of contact is 50% which equates to 22&1/2 * ,these are for the firing side.I understand 26/27 is what the firing side should be..37 total. I have always set everything to 22 1/2 * using the KRW tool as the instruction say, Question ,,,shouldn't I be setting everything to 27* on the KRW using the degree slide.,,I think this would make the sun machine read correct or a lot closer..

Found this also
Dwell = 360 divided no of cylinders times
[% duty cycle divided by 100]

To cold to go outside,,,,,
 
I can't understand how the KRW 22 1/2 * relate to the 27* we are looking for on the sun machine.Using the 60% duty cycle it works out to be 27 *
 
Don said:
Found a chart on VP site saying the dist contact PERCENT of points being closed for 35-36 is 60% which works out to 27* of dwell.On the later years the percent of contact is 50% which equates to 22&1/2 * ,these are for the firing side.I understand 26/27 is what the firing side should be..37 total. I have always set everything to 22 1/2 * using the KRW tool as the instruction say, Question ,,,shouldn't I be setting everything to 27* on the KRW using the degree slide.,,I think this would make the sun machine read correct or a lot closer..

Found this also
Dwell = 360 divided no of cylinders times
[% duty cycle divided by 100]

To cold to go outside,,,,,
Click to expand...

Don,

Thats the difference in the large contacts and the later contacts..
All early large contact helmets etc should run the 27 degree adjustment on the drivers side with the pass side blocked open. Drivers sdie control the engine timing. The pass side is then adjusted gaining a toal of 36 degrees.The pass side controls the coil saturation .

Ex: If the early distributor is adjusted to 22 degrees on the drivers side the timing is off 10 degrees engine!! Requiring a timing slide adjustment !!

The drivers side is the timing adjustment and the pass side is dwell or coil build up. Drivers side incorrect then the timimg is off from where it should be, if the total is off then the engine wont rev up and has issues above 3000 or so rpm.....

I am presently writing some case studies on this subject for my seminar at the erly Ford convention in Springfiel in August....stay tuned....

Ever listen to how well some flatheads start and how off beat some sound ? Thats the difference in being close and being perfect !!!
 
Don,

This summer you need to bring me a case of diet Ale 8 soda pop and a box of your used distributors and we will let you build a few and run them on the tester etc, you would enjoy the day and the ride up.
You might want to stop in Lexington and get me some Woodford reserve and some bourbon beer.....kinda make your old ford feel good hauling booze ???
 
Sounds like a deal to me, the dist I have done for some V 8 close around here have all put disconnect sw on there cars so a bug won't start the cars by crawling across the start button..,they all seem to run great,mine included. Still like to learn and understand all I can absorb .Tks
 
Hi Bubba, Im a little puzzled by what you are suggesting regarding the firing points being closed for 27 deg. Also you state if firing points are set to 22 deg. engine timing will be off by 10 deg.?? Are you saying that all previous ford motor co. publications and all the various timing fixtures ever manufactured are incorrect ? Ive always set distributers to the factory guidelines with no problems, and Ive done hundreds of them over the years. To achieve 27 deg. the firing contacts would have to be closer together. How close on the average ? 10 thou ? The setting of say approx. 14 thou. (22 1/2 deg.) is a ford designed happy medium between ignition performance and a long service life of the distributer. Is the main reason for this to gain a little more initial engine advance ? I normally use an Australian made SERVEX timer to set distributers but have also used an Australian VANE machine to run them like your SUN machine. One has to bear in mind when fitting brand new contacts that the moving contact cam rubbing block wears in a little after some ? miles which has to be compensated for in the original contact settings. So I am not saying you are right or wrong but just wondering why you set up your early helmet distributers this way. Thanks. Regards, Kevin.
 
koates said:
Hi Bubba, Im a little puzzled by what you are suggesting regarding the firing points being closed for 27 deg. Also you state if firing points are set to 22 deg. engine timing will be off by 10 deg.?? Are you saying that all previous ford motor co. publications and all the various timing fixtures ever manufactured are incorrect ? Ive always set distributers to the factory guidelines with no problems, and Ive done hundreds of them over the years. To achieve 27 deg. the firing contacts would have to be closer together. How close on the average ? 10 thou ? The setting of say approx. 14 thou. (22 1/2 deg.) is a ford designed happy medium between ignition performance and a long service life of the distributer. Is the main reason for this to gain a little more initial engine advance ? I normally use an Australian made SERVEX timer to set distributers but have also used an Australian VANE machine to run them like your SUN machine. One has to bear in mind when fitting brand new contacts that the moving contact cam rubbing block wears in a little after some ? miles which has to be compensated for in the original contact settings. So I am not saying you are right or wrong but just wondering why you set up your early helmet distributers this way. Thanks. Regards, Kevin.
Click to expand...

We are using the factory set up bullitens from the Ford service book for the early helmet distributor, the setting is 27 degrees pass side and 36 total with both sets in operation.
I have posted this on the Barn i the past with a scan of the orginal manual. we use plenty of lube , some ggod quality contacts a liberal soaking of marvel oil and then break them in on a machine at approx 2500-3000 rpm for a few minutes...
theres realy no need to use the timing adjustment at all if its perfect/, if all engine builders would mark TDC then we could see how close it actualyl is using a timing light.
 
Let's see if I have this right,,on the early dist with large contacts,set the firing points to 26* and the right side to total of 36* ---- the later dist would be set to 22 1/2 * for the firing side and right side to total of 36*??????
 
Don said:
Let's see if I have this right,,on the early dist with large contacts,set the firing points to 26* and the right side to total of 36* ---- the later dist would be set to 22 1/2 * for the firing side and right side to total of 36*??????
Click to expand...

I think the exact is 27 for the drivers and 36 combined. But i would never complain about 1 degree. However 1 degree of dwell is 2 degrees at the crankshaft .
Sometime next week i will see if i can dig up the exact bulletin. A scan it to the forum...
 
Hi there BUBBA & Don, Im not sure which ford service bulletins show 27* dwell for the right hand or firing points. The KRW and other timing fixtures show a 22 1/2 deg. dwell for each individual set of points (with the other set insulated) which adds up to a total dwell of 34 to 36 deg. including the overlap period of 10* when both sets are closed. This setting can be only accurate as long as all parts including cam, shaft, bushings, contact pins etc. have virtually no wear. I guess you can crib a little and get 27 deg. on the firing points to achieve a little more initial ignition advance, but you still can have only a total dwell (both contacts sets closed) of approx. 34 to 36 deg. on a good distributer. Most garages in the past did not even have a timing fixture and would just set a new set of points at .014" to .016" and adjust vacuum brake if required and away you go. My view is if you have a timing fixture, set up your distributor to the instructions which come with it and you will be real good. As BUBBA says, LUBE is very important, but too much is as bad as none ! High temp bearing grease on the cam, weight springs and pegs, points pivot pins, but just a little smear is all. Too much grease on rotating parts will just be flung off onto other places which don't need it. A little Engine oil on bushes. That's how I have always set up these 32 to 48 ford distributers. Don if you have or buy the KRW instructions for the TIMING FIXTURE (MACS have them) which is a good guide for those original settings. Hope this helps. Regards, Kevin.
 
koates said:
Hi there BUBBA & Don, Im not sure which ford service bulletins show 27* dwell for the right hand or firing points. The KRW and other timing fixtures show a 22 1/2 deg. dwell for each individual set of points (with the other set insulated) which adds up to a total dwell of 34 to 36 deg. including the overlap period of 10* when both sets are closed. This setting can be only accurate as long as all parts including cam, shaft, bushings, contact pins etc. have virtually no wear. I guess you can crib a little and get 27 deg. on the firing points to achieve a little more initial ignition advance, but you still can have only a total dwell (both contacts sets closed) of approx. 34 to 36 deg. on a good distributer. Most garages in the past did not even have a timing fixture and would just set a new set of points at .014" to .016" and adjust vacuum brake if required and away you go. My view is if you have a timing fixture, set up your distributor to the instructions which come with it and you will be real good. As BUBBA says, LUBE is very important, but too much is as bad as none ! High temp bearing grease on the cam, weight springs and pegs, points pivot pins, but just a little smear is all. Too much grease on rotating parts will just be flung off onto other places which don't need it. A little Engine oil on bushes. That's how I have always set up these 32 to 48 ford distributers. Don if you have or buy the KRW instructions for the TIMING FIXTURE (MACS have them) which is a good guide for those original settings. Hope this helps. Regards, Kevin.
Click to expand...

I will scan the Ford specs from the bulletins this week some time.
The 27 degree setting isnt advancing the drivers side but setting it in the middle of the slide.
The 22 1/2 number would be correct for the two bolt crab unit again allowing the slide to be in the middle...slide is adjustable for 12 degrees of ening timing 6 advanced and 6 retarded....

We need more engine builders to mark exact tdc and the confirm with timing light....
 
BUBBA, I will give Don a ride up to your shop, I have several of the distributors that Don has set up on his KRW and then ran on Sun and Allen machine. I leave the 41 truck/34car out of gear and emergency brake on, afraid of someone/bug hitting start button and truck taking off. With the coil being reconditioned and distributor set it does this hot or cold. I now tell people if they want a good running flathead they need to do three things, ignition, Ignition, IGNITION, thanks for all the info and looking forward to your video, Bruce
 
Learned something today[ try to learn something everyday].. Set up a early dist.everything new and good condition,on the KRW tool,being very precise using the KRW instructions,but instead of using 22 1/2 * as the instruction say ,I used the27* mark to set the drivers side,then set the timing slide like said.,set the passenger side to 27*.... Having calibrated the sun dwell a few days ago,put the dist on the machine,having checked the batteries, also, blocked the passing side ,machine shows 27* exactly unblocked passenger machine showed total dwell of 36 * tweaked the passenger side to 37* ,,,satisfied with this ,increased the rpm ,everything worked fine,one problem tho,it would drop a flash ever little bit at all speeds ,could see it more at low speed,,haven't figured the cause yet,supper time..
 
Don said:
Learned something today[ try to learn something everyday].. Set up a early dist.everything new and good condition,on the KRW tool,being very precise using the KRW instructions,but instead of using 22 1/2 * as the instruction say ,I used the27* mark to set the drivers side,then set the timing slide like said.,set the passenger side to 27*.... Having calibrated the sun dwell a few days ago,put the dist on the machine,having checked the batteries, also, blocked the passing side ,machine shows 27* exactly unblocked passenger machine showed total dwell of 36 * tweaked the passenger side to 37* ,,,satisfied with this ,increased the rpm ,everything worked fine,one problem tho,it would drop a flash ever little bit at all speeds ,could see it more at low speed,,haven't figured the cause yet,supper time..
Click to expand...


Which set of contacts ? small set or large band....??

Small set should use the 22 1/2 setting and 36 total.....
 
If you are calling the band the one piece points with a contact on each end that what these were. Using the individual points and 22 1/2 degrees @ 36* answers all my questions. If The instructions for the KRW had said something about the two different dist.I don't think I would have been so confused ,I have the adapters to use the 2 bolt Dist ,maybe I have a early set on instructions,,,,,Now what would cause the FLASH On the dial to skip sometime hi or lo rpm???
 
Don,
You might want to remove the points and bend the arms to give you more spring tension on the contacts. Sounds like you have some point bounce etc.
Some of these strap units were pretty loose and kinda skipped or bounced a little ....its usually at higher rpm.
If this is for your car i would suggest converting to the 11A parts , using the small cam and CS47 contacts. That will fix the bounce, i have all those parts if you wish to experiment etc.......
 
Thanks for info Bubba,have a couple of the 11 A cam laying around ,think I'll fix a dist for the 35 just to see if I can,,we have a NAPA store In town so parts shoul be no problem .Thanks for all the help,Bruce and I might make a road trip this summer to check out your operation..
 
Bubba, we ARE coming up, if it was heated in your shop I would ask Don to go now, cold down here!!! Need address of your shop and phone number, thanks
 
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