Rock Hornbuckle
Well-known member
Is there any info on the additional amount of stress that a banger inserted engine will handle, ie. compression/HP ?
Inserted Egines
- Thread starter Rock Hornbuckle
- Start date
Rowdy
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I have not seen much on actual specs of what they will hold up to. As mentioned in afew of these posts in the link below detonation is the common enemy of all bearings. Rod
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2742511
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2742511
Jim Brierley
Well-known member
They will take a lot, as will babbitt if done well and has good oiling. We race these things all the time on the Bonneville salt flats and elsewhere. I have gone 153 with all babbitt, and 167 with babbitt mains. It take over 200 horsepower to reach those speeds.
Rock Hornbuckle
Well-known member
Jim, perhaps you can tell me what grade of babbitt was used by Ford, and is it the same that is currently used by rebuilders. I know that XXXX Nickel Babbitt is used industrially because it lasts longer under severe service, and it's recommended for internal combustion engines. Although I have not been able to ascertain if Ford used the better grade. There is a mass of information and specs on the net, but I can find no connection to the Ford model A engine
.Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
Better grade is relative to the purpose.
As I recall from reading about babbitt and its use for engines was the Nickel was bad for cranks on IC engines because it would cause more scoring. Now this was relative to Nickel's use to harden the lead based babbitts. Not sure how it applies to the XXXX.
According to here: Babbitts it contains .5% nickel.
As to which babbitt was used by Ford you want to go here: Vince Falter's Babbitt info
As far as poured babbitt and racing engines. No problem. I have read/ told that some engines were prepared by first brazing the engine block saddles and then boring them. This allowed the surface to be tinned (with tin not lead) for best adhesion and to thin the bearing down some.
As I recall from reading about babbitt and its use for engines was the Nickel was bad for cranks on IC engines because it would cause more scoring. Now this was relative to Nickel's use to harden the lead based babbitts. Not sure how it applies to the XXXX.
According to here: Babbitts it contains .5% nickel.
As to which babbitt was used by Ford you want to go here: Vince Falter's Babbitt info
As far as poured babbitt and racing engines. No problem. I have read/ told that some engines were prepared by first brazing the engine block saddles and then boring them. This allowed the surface to be tinned (with tin not lead) for best adhesion and to thin the bearing down some.
Rock Hornbuckle
Well-known member
Thanks Kevin, I found the info. The closest current grade match to what Ford used, is SAE J460 Grade 11. I would assume this is the grade current rebuilders are using.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
The Ford babbitt is 86% tin, 7% Antimony, and 7% Copper. That was listed for the Model T. I have never seen a listing for Model A's, or Model B's.
Some of the rod bearings in the V-8's were copper-Lead, but the mains on the V-8's were still Tin Base from 1936, on down.
Every babbitt that was made in 1920 is available Today.
Personally, I don't like that Fords mix as it machines dirty, as as there is lots of fine dust.
Grade 11 is what many bearing manufactures used, not all, but many.
I have tried them all in the last 40 some years, and I like Grade No. 2, price wise it's the same, as Fords, and Grade 11, but it machines good, and holds up good, al-though, I have never had a bad bearing in anything.
Now, Nickel babbitt, the only thing that is Nickel babbitt is in name "ONLY". The 1/2 percent of Nickel in babbitt is an "INERT" ingredient, and there are, or can be other trace elements.
When they call a Tin Base Babbitt 4XXXX Nickel, it is just a trade name, and thats all, the Nickel does nothing for the babbitt. If they could get that last 1/2 percent out and not cost over the price to do it, they would have. They could have just as easeiy called it 4XXXX Diamond Tin.
Some of the rod bearings in the V-8's were copper-Lead, but the mains on the V-8's were still Tin Base from 1936, on down.
Every babbitt that was made in 1920 is available Today.
Personally, I don't like that Fords mix as it machines dirty, as as there is lots of fine dust.
Grade 11 is what many bearing manufactures used, not all, but many.
I have tried them all in the last 40 some years, and I like Grade No. 2, price wise it's the same, as Fords, and Grade 11, but it machines good, and holds up good, al-though, I have never had a bad bearing in anything.
Now, Nickel babbitt, the only thing that is Nickel babbitt is in name "ONLY". The 1/2 percent of Nickel in babbitt is an "INERT" ingredient, and there are, or can be other trace elements.
When they call a Tin Base Babbitt 4XXXX Nickel, it is just a trade name, and thats all, the Nickel does nothing for the babbitt. If they could get that last 1/2 percent out and not cost over the price to do it, they would have. They could have just as easeiy called it 4XXXX Diamond Tin.
Rock Hornbuckle
Well-known member
I'm assuming the grade 2 you're referencing is ASTM B23 Grade 2, which is the same as SAE J460 Grade 12. This grade is 3.0-4.0% copper as opposed to Ford's 7.0%. I'm just wondering, because I have no experience with using babbitt under extreme conditions, with copper providing the strength and malleabilty to the bearings, how durable are the grade 2 bearings? Also, can you expound on "machines dirty as there is lots of fine dust". I'm very curious about this subject, from an engineering point of view. Any insight you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
Yo Herm, good to hear from ya.
Kevin: An old timer told me that "back in the day" they would bronze and line bore the mains .020 over, then babbitt and bore them to size. He said you could fix any problems with a soldering iron. He called them the original inserts. Seems like it would work today.
Kevin: An old timer told me that "back in the day" they would bronze and line bore the mains .020 over, then babbitt and bore them to size. He said you could fix any problems with a soldering iron. He called them the original inserts. Seems like it would work today.
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
In my research I found many shops using the B23 grade 2 babbitt. They have been using that babbitt for years and some have tens of thousands of miles on the babbitt.
The grade 2 is used because it pours somewhat easier then the 11 or Ford mix. It does not need quite as high a temp for pouring. Tried to find out why people used it. Called a company that makes the babbitt and asked and they had no clue, they just know a lot of guys doing engines use it.
In the end, the babbitt quality comes more from the guy pouring it understanding how to pour and machine it. My opinion is a lot of babbitt is poured wrong and either fails early (giving it a bad name) or is never driven enough to fail.
As long as we have people like Kohnke willing to talk about the right ways to pour babbitt, we have hope to keep the art and science alive.
The grade 2 is used because it pours somewhat easier then the 11 or Ford mix. It does not need quite as high a temp for pouring. Tried to find out why people used it. Called a company that makes the babbitt and asked and they had no clue, they just know a lot of guys doing engines use it.
In the end, the babbitt quality comes more from the guy pouring it understanding how to pour and machine it. My opinion is a lot of babbitt is poured wrong and either fails early (giving it a bad name) or is never driven enough to fail.
As long as we have people like Kohnke willing to talk about the right ways to pour babbitt, we have hope to keep the art and science alive.
Special Coupe Frank
Well-known member
One more thought about babbitt...
You'll find some stuff on the internet about "pouring your own babbitt"... this might be feasible for things like antique shop machinery ( thinking pre-Depression band-saws, drill-presses, buzz-saws, line shafts, and the like).
This type of application is vastly different than an automotive engine...
Machinery bearings generally have to deal with only rotational friction and axial thrust; the shaft speeds are relatively low, and usually constant.
Crankshaft bearings in an internal combustion engine are subject to much more severe and varied loading, especially the rod bearings.
One might even get away with successfully pouring their own bearings for early hit & miss engines, but again, the running speeds and destructive forces are not as severe as those encountered in a "high-speed" automotive engine.
Other folks here have written extensively about the critical nature of poured automotive bearings (especially Ford), so I won't try to duplicate their efforts.
Herm (Kohnke Babbitting) is one of the best... "he knows his onions", as Old Henry would say.
You'll find some stuff on the internet about "pouring your own babbitt"... this might be feasible for things like antique shop machinery ( thinking pre-Depression band-saws, drill-presses, buzz-saws, line shafts, and the like).
This type of application is vastly different than an automotive engine...
Machinery bearings generally have to deal with only rotational friction and axial thrust; the shaft speeds are relatively low, and usually constant.
Crankshaft bearings in an internal combustion engine are subject to much more severe and varied loading, especially the rod bearings.
One might even get away with successfully pouring their own bearings for early hit & miss engines, but again, the running speeds and destructive forces are not as severe as those encountered in a "high-speed" automotive engine.
Other folks here have written extensively about the critical nature of poured automotive bearings (especially Ford), so I won't try to duplicate their efforts.
Herm (Kohnke Babbitting) is one of the best... "he knows his onions", as Old Henry would say.
Jim Brierley
Well-known member
Rock, Kevin and Herm (Kohnke) are much more knowledgeable about babbitt than I am, and have covered your question very nicely. The engine that I spoke of was done with what the guy called "diesel babbitt" which was supposedly harder than Ford babbitt.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Special Coupe Frank,
Well said, everything true.
Last Line Debatable!
Well said, everything true.
Last Line Debatable!
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Yes, you are right Mr. PC, that was tried in the Model T & A Raceing engines by a few, but it was also not necessary.
It took lots of heat to put on the brass, and a lot of heat to Tin, and pour the bearings at a steady 610, to 640, and that is all but possible, and it would have a High potential of block worping.
Herm
It took lots of heat to put on the brass, and a lot of heat to Tin, and pour the bearings at a steady 610, to 640, and that is all but possible, and it would have a High potential of block worping.
Herm
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
The terms, Diesel Marine, or Marine Babbitt is mose often misunderstood, and again it is just a trade name.
While it can be used in an engine, it is made for use in salt water bearings, "so they say" with a tendency for hard to lubricate applications.
Grade No. 2 is Tin Antimony Copper
89% 7 1/2% 3 1/2%
Diesel Marine is 88% 9% 3%
Not much difference.
Grade 11 88% 6 1/2% 5 1/2%
Fords 86% 7% 7%
Tin is your filler, copper is for the wear factor, and Antimony is your harding agent.
Herm.
While it can be used in an engine, it is made for use in salt water bearings, "so they say" with a tendency for hard to lubricate applications.
Grade No. 2 is Tin Antimony Copper
89% 7 1/2% 3 1/2%
Diesel Marine is 88% 9% 3%
Not much difference.
Grade 11 88% 6 1/2% 5 1/2%
Fords 86% 7% 7%
Tin is your filler, copper is for the wear factor, and Antimony is your harding agent.
Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
We did use the spinner on alot of 216 chevy rods, we have spun over 30,000 each of Model T Rods, many more for A rods, and 4 to 5 thousand Model B's. Haven't done a set of Model B rods in about 5 years now.
We have done thousands of Model T ball caps, and Model T cam bearings in all shaft sizes.
We Spin alot of car, and Tractor cam bearings.
Spun babbitt is different then Spraying babbitt, which we do not do as that is used in large industrail bearings.
We also have done alot of high wheel tractor engines.
Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
I'm assuming the grade 2 you're referencing is ASTM B23 Grade 2, which is the same as SAE J460 Grade 12. This grade is 3.0-4.0% copper as opposed to Ford's 7.0%. I'm just wondering, because I have no experience with using babbitt under extreme conditions, with copper providing the strength and malleabilty to the bearings, how durable are the grade 2 bearings? Also, can you expound on "machines dirty as there is lots of fine dust". I'm very curious about this subject, from an engineering point of view. Any insight you can give me will be greatly appreciated."END QUOTE"
When you use the term Grade, they go by number, so yes there would only be One Grade 2.
The Grade No. 12 was discontinued by many supplers many years ago, but they will still make anything for you if you got the money for a big batch.
The dust comes from the addition of a little more Antimony.
Copper is for wear, and Antimony in for strangth, but the more you have the more brittle it becomes. I am not saying that is good or bad because I don't know, but it all works.
We know that Fords Babbitt 86-7-7 was stated in the K.R.Wilson book for Model T's, but I have not seen any place written that, it remained the same into the Model A's, B's, and early V-8's.
how durable are the grade 2 bearings? "END QUOTE"
I don't know, as we have never had a bad bearing from any Grade.
It is all Temperature, and installation.
Shell Temperature should be not under 610 or over 640 and Pouring Pot not over 950 to a 1,000.
Herm.
When you use the term Grade, they go by number, so yes there would only be One Grade 2.
The Grade No. 12 was discontinued by many supplers many years ago, but they will still make anything for you if you got the money for a big batch.
The dust comes from the addition of a little more Antimony.
Copper is for wear, and Antimony in for strangth, but the more you have the more brittle it becomes. I am not saying that is good or bad because I don't know, but it all works.
We know that Fords Babbitt 86-7-7 was stated in the K.R.Wilson book for Model T's, but I have not seen any place written that, it remained the same into the Model A's, B's, and early V-8's.
how durable are the grade 2 bearings? "END QUOTE"
I don't know, as we have never had a bad bearing from any Grade.
It is all Temperature, and installation.
Shell Temperature should be not under 610 or over 640 and Pouring Pot not over 950 to a 1,000.
Herm.
Attachments
Rock Hornbuckle
Well-known member
Thanks Herm, you've been most helpful.
Rock
Rock
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
Antimony has the property of like water. It expands as it hardens. This helps control shrinkage in the bearing material as it cools.
The copper and antimony add their hardness. There is also the modification of the melting point as you mix the materials. You will find the harder babbitts, higher copper and antimony, melt and pour at higher temps.
Lead is very undesirable. There is a paper from a German company that is interesting and very technical. The research was to find out if lead free babbitt was ok. Yes, the fools are so worried about the lead they want it out of babbitt in the EU. Turns out the lead crystalizes and fractures with impact and leads to micro cracking. Micro cracking leads to cracks. So the lead is a very bad thing for babbitt.
Here are some links on babbitt that still work:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA024306
Properties of White Metal
Babbitt spinning
T babbitting
The copper and antimony add their hardness. There is also the modification of the melting point as you mix the materials. You will find the harder babbitts, higher copper and antimony, melt and pour at higher temps.
Lead is very undesirable. There is a paper from a German company that is interesting and very technical. The research was to find out if lead free babbitt was ok. Yes, the fools are so worried about the lead they want it out of babbitt in the EU. Turns out the lead crystalizes and fractures with impact and leads to micro cracking. Micro cracking leads to cracks. So the lead is a very bad thing for babbitt.
Here are some links on babbitt that still work:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA024306
Properties of White Metal
Babbitt spinning
T babbitting