Hydraulic Brakes vs. Original?

pklarkin

pklarkin

Member
Hi folks, I'm in the process of a frame-up restoration/rebuild of my 1929 Business Coupe (https://patsmodela.wordpress.com/) and I'm trying to decide if I should keep the mechanical brakes or upgrade to hydraulic. I don't plan on doing a lot of highway driving, but would like to be safe. Asking for your thoughts. Thanks!
 
If you have need due to health reasons you may need hydraulic brakes --less work needed from the driver... Otherwise, I'd keep them mechanical.. I've locked up my mechanical brakes and at that point it's all tires. (speed < 40mph).
 
The conversion to hydraulic brakes is not as easy as it initially seems, with the need to alter the pedals and battery box to accommodate a master cylinder, as well as many other hurdles. Each way, done correctly, simply mean that you will be able to skid the skinny, original size tires. The hydraulic system will just do it with less effort, which might not be a good thing.
 
If the wheels can be locked up with the mechanicals, hydraulics are not going to improve your braking. Once the wheels lock your braking diminishes. The only pro to hydraulic I can see is maybe less effort (and maybe less maintenance?).
 
Someone here in the past has already said it, I've never known mechanical brakes to leak..
I think one of the reasons model A and T have defied time is in its simplicity.
Rubber rots, seals, wheel cylinders etc..
What other car can sit 30+ years and you can start it and run it? And it will stop.
 
I have two cars (Coupe and T.S.) and both have Hyd. brakes and I wish they didn't. Why? you ask. Well I have just about rebuilt both of them and I don't think that there's any advantage to the Hydraulics. I've had to replace both Hyd. Master Cyls and in doing so, I converted to a dual MC. And I've replaced lines and hard to get fittings with hard to find threads. BTW if you're still so inclined Speedway racing parts sells a pretty good dual MC for $39 IIRC, Google Speedway racing. Another drawback is the mounting of it. There are basically two (?) ways to activate it.One is to use the brake cross shaft and mount the MC outside of the chassis. The other requires cutting the rod arm off the brake pedal and welding it on the bottom of the brake pedal so that it pushes backwards when the pedal is pushed forward. Go to my profile and check my pics under "My Coupe". They should give you a pretty good idea of the two methods. Also, when the cars sit for while, the wheel cylinders tend to lock up. And no matter where you locate the MC, it will be hard to fill. A good mechanical system has none of this.
Terry
 
I'm currently working on getting my brakes the way I want them to work.
I'm keeping the original mechanical, a little more involved on getting them tuned in but I believe if done right they are the only choice, once you change out, you'll play hell going back to original later down the road. Leave them as Henry intended them, you'll be happier in the long run.
Mechanical brakes are a marvel to see, plus, you'll never have a brake fluid leak or have to bleed the brakes.
 
My brother had hydraulics on his 30 coupe and he had trouble equalizing the stopping power on all wheels then the wheel cylinders acted up and one would grab and not the other, constant troubles and uneven braking the result, stop light switches were also problematic with brake fluid degrading the rubber. I have mechanicals on the coupe with no problems at all.
 
Work wise to do an initial set up they both need to be carefully put together.

You still need to get the shoes matching the radius of the drums and centered. You still need to buy a bunch of new parts. Of course you have to engineer a proper set up for your juice brakes.

So what do you get for all the work. They both stop about the same and the true limits for stopping power are the tires and the limited contact patch.

Now lets us talk case historys.

Two cars in my families stable in the decades we have owned cars in the NJ area.
The 31 coupe my brother has basically not done anything to the brakes other then adjust them since like 1970. The car is still on the road and he has not problems running it 55 MPH.
The 39 Ford we had that was very original. It was the classic older couple had it in the garage with only 40,000 miles (V8 60HP). First year for juice brakes. Could not keep the brakes working right (to our satisfaction) every few years a wheel would mess up. Keep in mind we were putting NOS parts on it and even switched to dot 5 stuff.
Juice brakes will fail from just sitting. (this depends on area of the country based on humidity and temp variation during the day)

The catch with mechanical brakes is they have to be done very right. Parts much be new and properly assembled (most parts are available in quality repro parts). Shoes much match the drum diameter and be centered to the drum. Ford designed the brakes to run a .001" accuracy. I learned this from someone who had viewed the prints at the research center. He was surprised of how accurately the brakes were designed.
 
Keep in mind within the drum it's all mechanics --shoes putting mechanical force on the drums. I like think of them as power breaks, like power steering... hydraulically assisted mechanical systems.. One day steering of cars will be "drive by wire" --no direct connection mechanically to the wheels --just like "fly by wire" planes..
 
Willie Krash said:
Someone here in the past has already said it, I've never known mechanical brakes to leak..
I think one of the reasons model A and T have defied time is in its simplicity.
Rubber rots, seals, wheel cylinders etc..
What other car can sit 30+ years and you can start it and run it? And it will stop.
Click to expand...

A wise man ! I totally agree ! Wayne
 
Didn't old Henry have a slogan something like "the power of steel from heal to wheel"????
I never have had a mechanical brake car, but I bet if set up correctly they would do just fine.
 
I think you answered your own question when you said " I am doing a ground up restoration"....there were never hydraulic brakes on an A from the factory.
If you wish to say " I am putting together an old car from some old parts", then it would be OK to use the hydraulics.:D
 
The big question is how often are you going to drive it? Once a week or more and hydraulic are great. If not exercised however they will be a problem. In my experience hydraulics are way cheaper if you send out your mechanical backing plates and hubs to be restored vs that was not required for hydraulics. For mechanicals to be effective they can't be worn out and good luck if you don't have new cast iron drums. Mechanicals require good condition equipment not worn out and sloppy like my 28 and 29 were when I got them and mechanicals have lots of point of wear. Hydraulics don't have all those wear points. The only thing to wear out on hydraulics is the shoes(this assumes you use the hydraulics at least once a week to avoid stuck wheel cylinders. I'm replacing the hydraulics on my two to mechanical as I will be selling them and many Model A folks like mechanicals and few drive enough to keep hydraulics working. When is the last time you have seen a Model A driving down the road? I haven't seen someone list the details of how to get mechanical brakes work effectively. Typical response is "mechanicals are better" "mechanicals are good enough" "mechanicals are simpler" etc and most of these have been listed above.

IMHO to get the mechanicals working effectively you have to:
cast iron drums trued to the hubs
woven shoes trued to the drums
brake cross shaft restored
new bushings and the many worn out parts on backing plates replaced
no sloppy linkages on brake rods or clevises
careful adjustment of brake rods

BTW know any local shops who will true drums and arc shoes anymore?

I also haven't seen much in the way of which hydraulics are best. IMHO Ford lockheed brakes are miserable. 46/48s are slightly better than 40/42. I won't use them again that is for sure. They require nearly as much tweeking as mechanicals do to get them to work correctly. A new set of repro lincoln bendix brakes are as good as drum hydraulic brakes get. IMHO with bendix arcing shoes and truing drums aren't necessary with new drums and backing plates. The hot rod guys have this figured out and they aren't much using lockheed brakes anymore as the repro bendix are so good. I labeled a pile of lockheed backing plates as "Ford frisbees" at the Ckickasha swap meet. Got lots of laughs but no sales.

On my 36 woodie I took off a very good set of mechanical brakes and replaced them with disc on the front and new lincoln bendix plates and new drums on the back. I drive it at least once a week in good weather. It stops on a dime and very little to no adjustment is necessary. I may send out the rear end to be converted to modern axles by that hot rod shop in Idaho so I can put disc on the back as well.

Another thing to consider is that having the master cylinder below the wheel cylinders is a PITA. Much better would be the master cylinder installed like in a modern car on the firewall. Then bleeding the brakes would be a breeze.

Here is how: https://sites.google.com/site/mrtexascitrus/home/hydraulicbrakes
https://sites.google.com/site/mrtexascitrus/home/hydraulics4648
 
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