How much brake line does it take to do an old Ford?
- Thread starter Tim Ayers
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Talkwrench
Well-known member
Dont buy a cheap flaring tool they never work well, Eastwood turret at the very least. I found that it doesn't like lines too soft.
JMHO.
JMHO.
Bigjohnson
Member
Use mycoplasma about 25foot roll just did a 35 pu had 4foot left but buy a double flair tool
Bigjohnson
Member
I ment to say nycop line
JSeery
Member Emeritus
Some may not be familiar with the fact that there are different brake line flares in use now. Years ago you could go to an auto shop and purchase brake lines and they would fit the fitting you had. Now there different styles of flares are common and you need to be sure the flares you use are consistent with the fittings! Here are some examples. There is Metric vs SAE as well.
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Flathead Fever
Well-known member
I used 3/16" on my '32 chassis and I wish I would have used 1/4 brake line. Its a 1940s style hot rod so 1/4" tubing would have looked more authentic. The people that know look for this kind of stuff. You're building a 1940s AV8 so 1/4" would be the hot ticket.
Modern cars use 3/16" tubing. Maybe back in 1939 1/4" looked safer to the engineers? Later, all cars switched to 3/16" tubing. Some of the bigger trucks from the 1980s I worked on had 1/4" tubing but they had huge wheel cylinders
Here are some of my brake flaring tools. The top box is a Blue Point (Snap-On) Then a Papco and an old K-D double flaring tool. At the phone company garage we had an Imperial double flaring tool that I liked the best. I have never seen another one like it, I keep looking on eBay. That shop was built in 1950 so who knows when they bought that tool. They had a nice little Imperial bender that would make real nice tight bends. I always borrowed it. The benders I have do not make as small of a bend. I need to buy one of those little ones.
I'll show you how I make lines that might be helpful to you. I only work on my personal projects so I don't make brake lines very often. Every once in awhile I made them up at work, when a snow chain crosslink would break and tear a line right off a rear wheel cylinder. That's a different world than building hot rods. Those lines don't need to be pretty, they just need to be safe.
First, make sure your nut is up against the flare before you make your bend. Once you make the bend that nut is not going to slide around it. Tape the nut to the flare, that would be even better. If you shorten the tubing put the nut back on (in the right direction) before you flare it. I got in a hurry at work and made that mistake. I was so proud of my perfect double flare until I looked down and saw the nut laying on the workbench.
Like I said in a previous post. I got bored one day and made a bunch of short pieces of tubing with different degree bends. Probably from 10-degrees on up to 90-degree.
If you look at the bender you will see there are two zeros that are lined up. There is a lot of slop right there there so the zeros can be a lot. You need to make sure they are lined up or your bend is going to be off. In the photo I'm putting a sharpie mark on the tubing right at the end of the bender.
Just to give you an idea. I setup a couple '32 running board brackets to simulate a frame. One that's straight, it might represent a frame side rail and one angled, maybe its a center crossmember. I picked out the two angled test pieces that will work best. You can see the Sharpie marks from when they were setup in the bender.
Lets pretend we bend the real piece of tubing starting where we want that 90 degree bend to be, that's the easy part. Now what is hard is to know where to start that second bend at? If you start the bend just a 1/4" too far the tubing will be too long to fit in there. A 1/4" too short and you could make it work but it won't look as nice. All you need to do to is put your two little test pieces in place and measure the distance between the two sharpie marks. That will tell you where to lineup the tubing with the tubing bender's edge to start your second bend. I've had pretty good luck doing it this way.
Modern cars use 3/16" tubing. Maybe back in 1939 1/4" looked safer to the engineers? Later, all cars switched to 3/16" tubing. Some of the bigger trucks from the 1980s I worked on had 1/4" tubing but they had huge wheel cylinders
Here are some of my brake flaring tools. The top box is a Blue Point (Snap-On) Then a Papco and an old K-D double flaring tool. At the phone company garage we had an Imperial double flaring tool that I liked the best. I have never seen another one like it, I keep looking on eBay. That shop was built in 1950 so who knows when they bought that tool. They had a nice little Imperial bender that would make real nice tight bends. I always borrowed it. The benders I have do not make as small of a bend. I need to buy one of those little ones.
I'll show you how I make lines that might be helpful to you. I only work on my personal projects so I don't make brake lines very often. Every once in awhile I made them up at work, when a snow chain crosslink would break and tear a line right off a rear wheel cylinder. That's a different world than building hot rods. Those lines don't need to be pretty, they just need to be safe.
First, make sure your nut is up against the flare before you make your bend. Once you make the bend that nut is not going to slide around it. Tape the nut to the flare, that would be even better. If you shorten the tubing put the nut back on (in the right direction) before you flare it. I got in a hurry at work and made that mistake. I was so proud of my perfect double flare until I looked down and saw the nut laying on the workbench.
Like I said in a previous post. I got bored one day and made a bunch of short pieces of tubing with different degree bends. Probably from 10-degrees on up to 90-degree.
If you look at the bender you will see there are two zeros that are lined up. There is a lot of slop right there there so the zeros can be a lot. You need to make sure they are lined up or your bend is going to be off. In the photo I'm putting a sharpie mark on the tubing right at the end of the bender.
Just to give you an idea. I setup a couple '32 running board brackets to simulate a frame. One that's straight, it might represent a frame side rail and one angled, maybe its a center crossmember. I picked out the two angled test pieces that will work best. You can see the Sharpie marks from when they were setup in the bender.
Lets pretend we bend the real piece of tubing starting where we want that 90 degree bend to be, that's the easy part. Now what is hard is to know where to start that second bend at? If you start the bend just a 1/4" too far the tubing will be too long to fit in there. A 1/4" too short and you could make it work but it won't look as nice. All you need to do to is put your two little test pieces in place and measure the distance between the two sharpie marks. That will tell you where to lineup the tubing with the tubing bender's edge to start your second bend. I've had pretty good luck doing it this way.
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v8fordman
Well-known member
I just finished a retro fit on a '37 pickup. One 25' roll will do the job if you don't have too many mistakes. (Don't put the rear wheel cylinders on the wrong side) I agree that a quality flaring tool is a must and I would recommend steel lines. You can still get copper coated steel (like Ford used on fuel lines) if you are looking for some corrosion resistance. I don't know if it's worth that much over time.
KGS
Well-known member
Tim, Have you called Roy Nacewicz about his brake lines?
He has repro'd the original Ford copper/steel/copper brakes lines.
I'm sure he can fill your needs or at least give you some good info.
Ken
KGS
Well-known member
The Ford brake lines were made from steel sheet that was copper plated on both sides. Then rolled into tubing which resulted in tubing that had copper plating on the inside and the outside. This was done to eliminate or reduce rust inside the brake line. Roy Nacewicz sells this brake line.
Flathead Fever
Well-known member
Hey Tim, here are a couple helpful pieces for your AV8 brake job. The triangle piece that the rubber brake hose goes to that bolts to the rear radius rods front bolt and this brake line bracket that is welded to the later torque tubes. I've been using late '32 rear ends and '34 rear ends and there are no mounts on the torque tube for the brake lines. I added the flexible spring protective covering over that one tube to prevent any chafing from rubbing a hole through the line.
This late model '32 rear end is an experiment in my '32 roadster project. The left and right axle housing have been swapped and rotated upside down. This lowers the back of the car. But it puts the radius rod brackets on top of the axle housing will they won't work. I could cut them off and weld them back on the bottom but that welding would warp the housings. I'm using '36 rear radius rods that I shortened and then made adapter brackets for them to attach to the '32 brackets. Still using the '32 spring. I'm not sure I like it yet?
I cut that piece off a hydraulic brake equipped torque tube and tack welded it on the '32 for now. An Early Ford brake hose will not reach the master cylinder without a mickey mouse short piece of tubing between the two. I need to get a longer hose and eliminate that piece of tubing. Its a work in progress.
The Master Cylinder mount is a reproduction on a late forties, early fifties Ansen mount used to install hydraulic brakes on a '32. It bolts to the original K-member holes. What I don't like is that it sits down below the cross member where its vulnerable to getting hit. I have an original Ansen mount I'll dig out and take pictures of. On an AV8 you have to cut up the K-member anyway when you narrow it for for the Model A frame. Traditionally you remove the left leg of the K-member and install '39 pedals. This '32 frame is so nice there was no way I was taking off the K-member leg for '39 pedals. I used the original '32 pedals with this Ansen style master cylinder mount. There are better kits available now for mounting the master cylinder but I wanted to stay with what was done on vintage hot rods. That master cylinder photo you can see the Sharpie marks on the lines I used to bend the tubing like I described earlier. Nice and tight up against the cross member and the centered going through the hole in the cross member. It still needs a rubber grommet and I'm not sure about the little "billet" brake line clamp on my 1940s hot rod?.
The "sharpie system" works well for me since I only do this once every ten or fifteen year's.
All this is just a mach up. I still need a nice looking 90 degree brass fitting coming off that master cylinder and all those grade 5 bolts need to go. There are no grade "5" and "8" markings on bolt heads until 1956 when the Society of Engineers standardized bolt identifications. All my bolt will originally be, original thickhead Ford bolts with no markings as they should be on a 1940s hot rod. There are buckets of them down at my dad's house. When he was in the Model A Club a couple of members were parting out Model A's in their backyard. My dad always took the bolts.
The front brake line runs from the master cylinder to the left hose where you use a "banjo fitting to make the three way connection. Then the line continues around the front cross member to the right hose. These line are just sitting in there loose that's why they are crooked. This is a nice '32 frame with no extra holes. I didn't want to drill the front brake hose holes in my '32 frame but I decided that is the cleanest look on a fenderless car. Make sure your front hoses will be long enough when turning the wheels. If you use '39 to '48 front hoses you should have them before making the steel lines so you know where to mount them to the frame so they will not be too short when turning the wheels or too long and hang down on the steering linkage.
I have an area of spare parts. This is one of two brake shelves. Early Ford brakes and Lincoln brakes. In the 1980s I'd buy a complete backing plate and drum for $10.00. With was too high unless it was a Lincoln. Looks for lots of ribs and a tapered wheel stud when searching for Lincoln brakes. I use to pick up '39 transmissions too if they were $50.00 to $75.00.
This late model '32 rear end is an experiment in my '32 roadster project. The left and right axle housing have been swapped and rotated upside down. This lowers the back of the car. But it puts the radius rod brackets on top of the axle housing will they won't work. I could cut them off and weld them back on the bottom but that welding would warp the housings. I'm using '36 rear radius rods that I shortened and then made adapter brackets for them to attach to the '32 brackets. Still using the '32 spring. I'm not sure I like it yet?
I cut that piece off a hydraulic brake equipped torque tube and tack welded it on the '32 for now. An Early Ford brake hose will not reach the master cylinder without a mickey mouse short piece of tubing between the two. I need to get a longer hose and eliminate that piece of tubing. Its a work in progress.
The Master Cylinder mount is a reproduction on a late forties, early fifties Ansen mount used to install hydraulic brakes on a '32. It bolts to the original K-member holes. What I don't like is that it sits down below the cross member where its vulnerable to getting hit. I have an original Ansen mount I'll dig out and take pictures of. On an AV8 you have to cut up the K-member anyway when you narrow it for for the Model A frame. Traditionally you remove the left leg of the K-member and install '39 pedals. This '32 frame is so nice there was no way I was taking off the K-member leg for '39 pedals. I used the original '32 pedals with this Ansen style master cylinder mount. There are better kits available now for mounting the master cylinder but I wanted to stay with what was done on vintage hot rods. That master cylinder photo you can see the Sharpie marks on the lines I used to bend the tubing like I described earlier. Nice and tight up against the cross member and the centered going through the hole in the cross member. It still needs a rubber grommet and I'm not sure about the little "billet" brake line clamp on my 1940s hot rod?.
The "sharpie system" works well for me since I only do this once every ten or fifteen year's.
All this is just a mach up. I still need a nice looking 90 degree brass fitting coming off that master cylinder and all those grade 5 bolts need to go. There are no grade "5" and "8" markings on bolt heads until 1956 when the Society of Engineers standardized bolt identifications. All my bolt will originally be, original thickhead Ford bolts with no markings as they should be on a 1940s hot rod. There are buckets of them down at my dad's house. When he was in the Model A Club a couple of members were parting out Model A's in their backyard. My dad always took the bolts.
The front brake line runs from the master cylinder to the left hose where you use a "banjo fitting to make the three way connection. Then the line continues around the front cross member to the right hose. These line are just sitting in there loose that's why they are crooked. This is a nice '32 frame with no extra holes. I didn't want to drill the front brake hose holes in my '32 frame but I decided that is the cleanest look on a fenderless car. Make sure your front hoses will be long enough when turning the wheels. If you use '39 to '48 front hoses you should have them before making the steel lines so you know where to mount them to the frame so they will not be too short when turning the wheels or too long and hang down on the steering linkage.
I have an area of spare parts. This is one of two brake shelves. Early Ford brakes and Lincoln brakes. In the 1980s I'd buy a complete backing plate and drum for $10.00. With was too high unless it was a Lincoln. Looks for lots of ribs and a tapered wheel stud when searching for Lincoln brakes. I use to pick up '39 transmissions too if they were $50.00 to $75.00.
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