How far can we go to be Correct!

[Karl Wescott]

The more inclusive and hospitable the V8 Club, and its meets are the more likely, in my opinion, the better the chances to survive the generational transfers. Few, if any who post here or are members of the EV8C actually purchased a 1932 Ford NEW. So we all have to rely on the historians (both authors and preservationists) to know what a 1932 really was.

The two key classes here are the "Dearborn", precisely restored to factory practice if I understand correctly, and "Survivor" UN-restored but operable and presentable. Preserving cars at this level will provide a baseline for future generations. It will, however be progressively harder and more expensive to be the caretaker as years go bye. These classes should be strict (factory brakes, fuel pumps, etc or service life replacement parts). They may not even be driveable due to issues like tire technology. These cars are going to be very exclusive.

To introduce new people to the hobby is to provide the less strict classes. To be as inclusive as possible. An apprenticeship to speak in learning about the cars, learning to enjoy them, how to maintain them, and how to repair and do heavy restoration. If a kid wants to show up in their tuner Honda go ahead and park them well beyond the dumpster in the "non-Ford other" area BUT MAKE THEM WELCOME! Its that generation who will eventually be caretakers of the early V8. Street Rods and replicas will not be the "real thing" but can and should be enjoyed and appreciated, as it may be a stepping stone, especially if no "restorable" original parts were used.

Defining "over-restoration" is always a challenge, as collectors tend to want the most exclusive model. However I think from a historical perspective it is important to remind the new generations that all worthy early V8's were not just roadsters or convertibles, but could be standard tudor or fordor sedans.

The EV8 Club serves its members desires. The wisdom of the desires will determine how long the club and its mission survive.

My 10 cents worth. If I offended I offer my apologies.

 

[Kube]

TJ just saved me from my response, and hitted the nail on the head.

Okay, then explain to me why the board allowed such an insane change as the allowance of electric pumps on the concourse w/o a point deduction.

 

[Kube]

The more inclusive and hospitable the V8 Club, and its meets are the more likely, in my opinion, the better the chances to survive the generational transfers. Few, if any who post here or are members of the EV8C actually purchased a 1932 Ford NEW. So we all have to rely on the historians (both authors and preservationists) to know what a 1932 really was.

The two key classes here are the "Dearborn", precisely restored to factory practice if I understand correctly, and "Survivor" UN-restored but operable and presentable. Preserving cars at this level will provide a baseline for future generations. It will, however be progressively harder and more expensive to be the caretaker as years go bye. These classes should be strict (factory brakes, fuel pumps, etc or service life replacement parts). They may not even be driveable due to issues like tire technology. These cars are going to be very exclusive.

To introduce new people to the hobby is to provide the less strict classes. To be as inclusive as possible. An apprenticeship to speak in learning about the cars, learning to enjoy them, how to maintain them, and how to repair and do heavy restoration. If a kid wants to show up in their tuner Honda go ahead and park them well beyond the dumpster in the "non-Ford other" area BUT MAKE THEM WELCOME! Its that generation who will eventually be caretakers of the early V8. Street Rods and replicas will not be the "real thing" but can and should be enjoyed and appreciated, as it may be a stepping stone, especially if no "restorable" original parts were used.

Defining "over-restoration" is always a challenge, as collectors tend to want the most exclusive model. However I think from a historical perspective it is important to remind the new generations that all worthy early V8's were not just roadsters or convertibles, but could be standard tudor or fordor sedans.

The EV8 Club serves its members desires. The wisdom of the desires will determine how long the club and its mission survive.

My 10 cents worth. If I offended I offer my apologies.

Karl, You certainly did not offend me in any way.

In regard to over restoration, it is as you have eluded to, a difficult thing to define. I do not feel it has anything to do with model but rather, the quality of the restoration.
I have little doubt my cars are far beyond what Ford built or even intended to build. There have been times when my only deductions have been for over restoration. And, as I realize they (the cars) are most likely better than Ford's production, I have always taken the "hit" with no debate.
Still, I can't wrap my head around the acceptance of electric fuel pumps on the concourse w/o a mandatory point deduction. What's next? An alternator because some guy is not mechanically inclined enough to get his car to charge well enough with a generator? Then a 12v. battery because he can't or won't make the effort to restore the 6v. system properly?
Those cars, if the owner chooses to have point judged should receive a deduction for items outside "authentic as built".


I do agree with you that the Club should make everyone so inclined to participate feel welcome. We already have classes for everyone to enjoy and participate at the level they so desire.

 

[ford38v8]

...And just what constitutes over restored?? There are/were a lot of cars made were door gaps, alignment and fit were not perfect to begin with.....same with hood fitment.....SO in reality would that constitute OVER RESTORATION because that wasn't how "Henry Built it!!"

I think the phrase "Over-Restored" would not be heard on an AACA Concourse, while the phrase "Work Of Art" may never be heard on an EFV8 Concourse. One is disparaging, the other is praise, and both might describe the same vehicle, depending on where it is shown.

 

[Frank Miller]

Mike, While we are discussing fuel pumps, what do you think is a fair deduction for powder coating the springs on your current project?
The fuel pump falls into the gray area of safety. Some feel it is needed so not to be stranded. I believe the decision makers were just trying to accommodate people driving their cars to the meet.

 

[Kube]

Mike, While we are discussing fuel pumps, what do you think is a fair deduction for powder coating the springs on your current project?
The fuel pump falls into the gray area of safety. Some feel it is needed so not to be stranded. I believe the decision makers were just trying to accommodate people driving their cars to the meet.

Hi Frank,
I understand and appreciate those that drive their cars and feel the need to install an electric pump. However, perhaps you can explain to me how you might think it fair they receive no deduction on the concourse for such an installation.

RE: My powder finished springs.
The springs mimic the authentic appearance quite well. Yes, the material I use to gain that appearance is not the same as in 1940 but the outcome is close.
And to reiterate my earlier post, I have never objected to being "nicked" for over restoration.

 

[rockfla]

A lot of good/productive banter in this thread to say the least....Kube, my question to you IS......each year (and almost weekly) threads continue here on the barn about the "quality" and with each passing year the "availability" of 6V condensers, regulators (correctness included) quality points and at what point (no pun intended) are we hobbyist gonna find that many 6V items go the way of the dinosaurs...I am with you as the "Concour's" class and the whole "electric" fuel pump issue (and at this point generators & 12V systems) BUT as time goes (and even for driver class vehicles) it's hit and miss at the local NAPA for a good condenser and points set and its getting to the point where you have to have 3 or 4 sets with you as they may not last and as for starter's and generators, my local guy is seeing more and more China made crap armatures/fields etc. etc. and he is getting to the point that he doesn't what to rebuild them anymore because of returns for crap China material. SO at some point....I feel that we hobbyist are gonna be forced by the market into 12V systems sooner than we maybe care to like!!!! Believe me....I am the rare guy in the EFV8 Club, like Mike in Tenn., I am a "young" member and love the "original" aspect of all the vehicles in the club....but I also like the member's who "faithfully" drive cross country to regional/national meets and keep our hobby and club both visually and spiritually relevant and keep the EFV8's on the road using them and Henry intended and like the aspect of showing the local community at show's we present that dedication to keeping our club/cars alive and surviving!!!!

 

[G.M.]

In my opinion over restoration is not like the car was made. The cars
should be restored as they were built. They didn't have deep gloss
paint jobs. G.M.

 

[rotorwrench]

Many of the original materials like lacquer paint, Japan enamel, pyroxylin coated material for tops & faux leather, rubberized material for tops & boots, and many many more are lost to us now for the most part or very difficult to source. We have to use the next best material just to get close to OEM now. A person can argue authenticity till the cows come home but in the end we do the best for what we have at hand. Once you add something that is not authentic, you take risks with historical value. If a judging class dies out because it's no longer attainable, then maybe it should. A class shouldn't change to adjust for non historic content. Trying to change history is just wrong. Just take the points dock and go on down the road.

 

[TJ]

Okay, then explain to me why the board allowed such an insane change as the allowance of electric pumps on the concourse w/o a point deduction.

The board accepts the recommendations/rules of the JSC. The National Board's function is to affirm the rule and formally place it in the Judging Manual. The JSC was created as an independent body to oversee and amend the judging rules/regulations.

 

[Kube]

A lot of good/productive banter in this thread to say the least....Kube, my question to you IS......each year (and almost weekly) threads continue here on the barn about the "quality" and with each passing year the "availability" of 6V condensers, regulators (correctness included) quality points and at what point (no pun intended) are we hobbyist gonna find that many 6V items go the way of the dinosaurs...I am with you as the "Concour's" class and the whole "electric" fuel pump issue (and at this point generators & 12V systems) BUT as time goes (and even for driver class vehicles) it's hit and miss at the local NAPA for a good condenser and points set and its getting to the point where you have to have 3 or 4 sets with you as they may not last and as for starter's and generators, my local guy is seeing more and more China made crap armatures/fields etc. etc. and he is getting to the point that he doesn't what to rebuild them anymore because of returns for crap China material. SO at some point....I feel that we hobbyist are gonna be forced by the market into 12V systems sooner than we maybe care to like!!!! Believe me....I am the rare guy in the EFV8 Club, like Mike in Tenn., I am a "young" member and love the "original" aspect of all the vehicles in the club....but I also like the member's who "faithfully" drive cross country to regional/national meets and keep our hobby and club both visually and spiritually relevant and keep the EFV8's on the road using them and Henry intended and like the aspect of showing the local community at show's we present that dedication to keeping our club/cars alive and surviving!!!!

I have to wonder if there are those that believe I don't care for "drivers". I DO! In fact, I envy you guys. I often times I wish I could shut off the OCD that drives me to create these restorations. Lord knows I've tried.

Still, and to attempt to make my point of contention clear once again:
If a guy wants his car point judged, then regardless of ease of availability or cost of a part, if it's wrong, it's wrong. Period.
I realize that correct parts are becoming more scarce each passing day. that effects my restoration efforts as well as anyone else's.
However, that doesn't give a "pass" if a guy can't find that elusive piece or simply won't pay the price to acquire it.

 

[Kube]

In my opinion over restoration is not like the car was made. The cars
should be restored as they were built. They didn't have deep gloss
paint jobs. G.M.

You are correct in that a car that is simply "too nice" (whatever that is) is not a correct restoration. And, there are rules in place to allow for deductions for that occurrence.
I must ask though... So um, are you going to be the guy that judges how deep a paint job should be? And if so, what criteria are you going to use?

 

[Kube]

The board accepts the recommendations/rules of the JSC. The National Board's function is to affirm the rule and formally place it in the Judging Manual. The JSC was created as an independent body to oversee and amend the judging rules/regulations.

TJ and Mike, Thank you both for allowing me a better understanding of how concourse judging standards are created and / or altered.
Perhaps a member of the board can explain how this electric fuel pump rule became "law" so to speak.

From your explanation above, am I to understand that whatever the JSC recommends, the board "rubber stamps"?

 

[Kube]

Many of the original materials like lacquer paint, Japan enamel, pyroxylin coated material for tops & faux leather, rubberized material for tops & boots, and many many more are lost to us now for the most part or very difficult to source. We have to use the next best material just to get close to OEM now. A person can argue authenticity till the cows come home but in the end we do the best for what we have at hand. Once you add something that is not authentic, you take risks with historical value. If a judging class dies out because it's no longer attainable, then maybe it should. A class shouldn't change to adjust for non historic content. Trying to change history is just wrong. Just take the points dock and go on down the road.

I feel you have perhaps related my feelings better / more eloquently than I have and for that I thank you.
I have long felt that there will come a day when a so called 'perfect" restoration will be no longer possible without huge sums of money. I say that as I know first hand (tool & die maker - retired) that anything can be reproduced if a person so desires.

I think a number of folks and perhaps most importantly those on the JSC and Board need to look up the definition of "restoration" and shortly thereafter read the rules, mission and by-laws of the club.

 

[Russdadto5]

I love cars ! When I see older cars no matter what the shape my first response is wow look at that ! Every time I drive my car it gets judged , by people giving me thumbs up ,kids in the back seat of cars with there noses pressed up against the glass smiling . Sometimes they even tell me they like my car . My Dad restored it 15 years ago & he is gone now . I have rebuilt all the moving parts on the suspension since & DO NOT won't to change a thing on it as long as I can keep it running that way . We all have reasons for what we do & I respect each & every one of those reasons .So what ever it is you do that makes you happy keep on doing it . Russell

 

[rockfla]

For the "NON-Glossy" crowd...its just not true....both finishes on these factory photos are "quite" dreamy glossy paint jobs and would be proud to have on several of the EFV8's my dad has!!!! Sorry for not getting them landscaped!!!!!! There are a few more that come to mind which I don't have at hand but one is of a 35-36 two door sedan body coming down the assembly line getting ready to be installed on a frame...as memory serves that was quite a reflective finish as well!!! I think some car in "factory" photo's were dulled to not reflect the camera in the picture.

 

[TJ]

TJ and Mike, Thank you both for allowing me a better understanding of how concourse judging standards are created and / or altered.
Perhaps a member of the board can explain how this electric fuel pump rule became "law" so to speak.

From your explanation above, am I to understand that whatever the JSC recommends, the board "rubber stamps"?

When the JSC makes a rule or changes a rule it comes with an explanation. The board can ask questions if needed to make sure it is clear what is in the rule, why it is being changed or initiated, and make sure it will be clear to the members. Then it is approved and put in the Judging Manual. I'm not sure "rubber stamped" would be correct as there can be discussion on the issue if need be and there can be input from the National Chief Judge on occasion.
The creation of the JSC was to keep "politics" out of the judging process and try to be as fair to the members as possible when they show their cars. After seeing how other organizations operate their concourse or shows I think the V-8 Club has an excellent process and is as fair as possible when judging a vehicle. The Judging Manual/Rules help us do just that and at the same time be responsive to the membership.

 

[35fordtn]

I feel you have perhaps related my feelings better / more eloquently than I have and for that I thank you.
I have long felt that there will come a day when a so called 'perfect" restoration will be no longer possible without huge sums of money. I say that as I know first hand (tool & die maker - retired) that anything can be reproduced if a person so desires.

I think a number of folks and perhaps most importantly those on the JSC and Board need to look up the definition of "restoration" and shortly thereafter read the rules, mission and by-laws of the club.

Mike, speaking as a V-8 Club Board member....

The board's only job on a decision made by the JSC is to implement the decision. We have no say so. I was present in the board meeting when Electric pumps came about. We as a board do not vote on these changes. This is the way it was set up, and the way it is for the present time anyways.

I am not disagreeing with you stance. I do not use 12V, electric pumps, etc.. on my cars as they take away from the originality and are not needed even fro driving in my opinion.

 

[Frank Miller]

Mike, speaking as a V-8 Club Board member....

The board's only job on a decision made by the JSC is to implement the decision. We have no say so. I was present in the board meeting when Electric pumps came about. We as a board do not vote on these changes. This is the way it was set up, and the way it is for the present time anyways.

I am not disagreeing with you stance. I do not use 12V, electric pumps, etc.. on my cars as they take away from the originality and are not needed even fro driving in my opinion.

I agree about electric pumps not needed but I experienced vapor lock on my trip. It was real. This has been happening more in the last 2 years. Never had a problem before. Not sure if the gas is making it worse.
In the end I just dealt with it but I can see it being beyond what some members would do. It can be viewed as safety because there are dangerous places to have a car stop running. I believe that was the club's approach. Treat fuel pumps like seat belts. I put seat belts in my 49 to accommodate people who do not feel comfortable with them. I don't wear them on a motorcycle or in my old car. But I'm not everyone.

 

[Kube]

Mike, speaking as a V-8 Club Board member....

The board's only job on a decision made by the JSC is to implement the decision. We have no say so. I was present in the board meeting when Electric pumps came about. We as a board do not vote on these changes. This is the way it was set up, and the way it is for the present time anyways.

I am not disagreeing with you stance. I do not use 12V, electric pumps, etc.. on my cars as they take away from the originality and are not needed even fro driving in my opinion.

Okay, now THIS explanation makes it perfectly clear to me. Thank you Mike.

Now I'd like to hear the JSC explain this change.