Hoping for decent babbitt

B

bhut

Junior Member
Before I wrote the current engine off and ordered one, I wanted to look at the babbitt and see whether it was salvageable. My thought was that I could get the block machined locally and not have to send it off if the babbitt was still good. I wasn't optimistic given the condition of the deck and the interesting safety wire job on the rod caps, but I was surprised with what I found.

The engine has been running for the last 10 years until recently. The engine damage I discovered since taking the head off appears to have been from water sitting in the cylinders and block for many months until a repair was attempted. My guess based on the engine's appearance 10 years ago was that it was at least 10 years since it's last rebuild then. The babbitt then is probably 20+ years old.

The only main I pulled was the middle which appears to wear more than the others from everything I've read on here. The crank shows damage (2nd and 3rd pics) from having the water sit on it and the damage matches the groove pattern from the bearing material. Despite this pitting the rest of the surface is perfectly smooth and it ran this way for 10 years that I know of and does not appear to have noticeably damaged the babbitt in the main cap.

My question is can I continue using this babbitt, replace the shims, and rebuild the rest of the engine? It looks a lot better than some of the used babbitt bearing photos I see out here.
 

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Looks to me like the babbitt is not bad, with correct grooves as well. Hard to tell from the pics if you can clean up the crank with crocus cloth, measure clearances instead of just replacing the same shims, and run it, but that is my inclination. You would have to pull the crank to do that right and check the other bearings and journals. Rods look good. Some may say turn down the crank, but from what I see that would not be necessary. Not perfect, but more than good enough. As you say, there are worse out there.
 
I agree with PC.
What work is being done to the block?
How many shims are left? Now might be a good time to lightly polish the shaft and add counterweights.
 
Picture #3 worries me. The damage is straight which means the groove is not correct but what makes me cringe is, the depth of the damage. Being around the crank in a straight line, makes the crank weak and might cause a broken crank at the most inopportune time. Kind of like ringing the switch your mom used to discipline you as a kid. I use cranks with pits IF I have the crank ground and IF the damage is only small pits.
 
The babbitt is dark in color and that means it could be a lead based babbitt. Lead babbitt has no place in an engine that you intend to run a lot. It is very soft, some can be scrapped with a finger nail. Lead work hardens and cracks from the impact of an engine.

A good tin based babbitt holds a silvery shiny surface.

How tight are the babbitt shells in the saddles? Press the edges of the babbitt in the block and the rear cap. There should be no movement. If they move then they were not peened properly.

The real question you need to ask yourself is how are you going to use the car?

If you just putt around at 40 MPH for 100 miles a year then that engine will probably last a long time with that babbitt. Assuming when you pull the crank that side is good.

If you intend on running the A like it was from the factory then you need to make it like factory. BTW, the factory A was intended to be run 60 MPH and could do it all day long no problem.

There are many other issues dealing with balance and how well the engine was set up. Please go in to my website, link at the bottom, and read about crank grinding. There are many issues with engine balance that need to be considered. You also need to be sure your cam and such are properly set up as that is one area that can lead to what people think is 'vapor lock'.
 
There is a product called Timesaver that is used to "lap" in babbitted bearings. The Navy uses it on their large ship engines and many model T people use it on their babbitted engines - model A's - not so much (why, I don't know). I use it on my babbitted engines to achieve near 100% contact with the crank and rod journals. It will renew old babbitt if the babbitt is still salvageable and there are enough shims left between the caps and rod or block. Timesaver is guaranteed not to embed in the babbitt and self degrades to a benign compound when its work is done. I think my kit - course (used by far the most), medium, fine and extra fine was about $80. I have had good luck with it. BTW, I have no affiliation with the Timesaver maker.
Rusty Nelson
 
The rods and main cap I pulled all had plenty of shim material. Was actually surprised at the thickness of them, but the rods had what appeared to be solid brass shims around .015 - .020 each. Main cap had brass backed laminated shims, one was .015 the other .018.

End clearance with all rods was at least .008, but none would accept .011, so they appear to be within spec.

If the babbitt is usable the plan is a total rebuild. Bore to .125 over (already at .100), deck the block, new valve train, cam regrind or replacement, basically everything but the babbitt. It's either that or I drop $4k on an insert engine and stick this one in storage.
 
If it were me, I would sleeve back to standard and install new pistons, polish the crank and fit the mains and rods, do the valves and use it. If you drive less then a 1000 miles a year bet it would last a long time.
Not to condone using lead based babbett, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Ford used tin based in the Model T then went to lead based in the Model A then back to tin.
 
Never sleeve an engine unless it is absolutely necessary to save it. Sleeves don't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same and the engine will run hotter. People do get by with sleeved cylinders and I've overhauled sleeved engines, they just run hotter. I would check the cylinders for wear and taper before I had them bored. Same for decking the block.. The pistons rise about .032 above deck height on a stock engine. after a few deckings it can become a real problem. The pistons can rise so high above deck height that they can hit the head after warm up or higher RPM. The babbit looks reusable to me. With all of the shim thickness that you have, You should be able to peel or replace with thinner shims to get good clearance. I never set mine up tighter than .002 on the rods or mains. This applies to good used babbit . I've never seen a too tight engine last very long or run very fast. I'm just a shade tree mechanic but have had good luck overhauling my engines. I would never pay four thousand dollars for an engine unless I won the lottery. Model A's are mostly fun cars anyway. If you can overhaul the engine, save some money and enjoy it.
 
Never sleeve an engine unless it is absolutely necessary to save it. Sleeves don't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same and the engine will run hotter."END QUOTE"

That is all completely wrong!



The pistons rise about .032 above deck height on a stock engine. after a few deckings it can become a real problem. "END QUOTE"


In 47 years, never had a problem like that!

A normal deck cleans at .010 thousandths, if you have deep rust pits, they should be filled first, and have to do that every once in a while.

You don't just start grinding on a block when you don't know what you are doing.

If you have a engine that over heats, and the Radiator is known good, then the only thing in the block that will make it heat is rust in the water jacket, and all the time we see engines rebuilt, and in need to be rebuilt with valves ground down in the block so the engine can't breath.

Many have the heads level with the top of the block.

So if you have a block that over heats, there is a fixable reason for it!
 
I'm not surprised that you would make such a comment. Don't worry Herm, I only do my own engines , I'm not after any of your customers. Sleeving engines sure as hell does cause them to run higher temps and you know this !!! I'm not talking about running so hot that they actually overheat but running higher temperatures. Many things can contribute to overheating and sleeving all of the cylinders is a big one. As you said, don't just start grinding if you don't know what you are doing and that is exactly what I was talking about. My post was not aimed at any of the engine builders that post here or throwing off on their work. I was only trying to give common sense advise , not to just start machining stuff that doesn't need or have to be machined. A lot of us have heard of pistons lightly striking the head on engines that had been decked too much. I'm not an upstart kid!!! Ive owned and repaired model A's most of my life. Un like you, I admit that I've made mistakes in my mechanic work, Truth be known, that is how we learn.
 
I never worry about customers, were full all the time.

Sleeving cylinders in a non problem.

My post was not aimed at any of the engine builders that post here or throwing off on their work."END QUOTE"

Didn't take as any.

Never sleeve an engine unless it is absolutely necessary to save it. Sleeves don't transfer the heat to the water jacket the same and the engine will run hotter."END QUOTE"

It is still not true and misinformation.

My dad used to say he knew a guy that drove a Model T all his life, and he still couldn't drive!
 
Do you have a picture of the valves and top of the block?

Look carefully at the shim packs and you should find what looks like one thick brass shim is actually layers glued tightly together. I use a magnifying glass and razor blade to carefully peel off each layer. Use a razor blade and scratch it along the sharpest corner of the shim and you should be able to start a thin shim peeling off.
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
Do you have a picture of the valves and top of the block?

Look carefully at the shim packs and you should find what looks like one thick brass shim is actually layers glued tightly together. I use a magnifying glass and razor blade to carefully peel off each layer. Use a razor blade and scratch it along the sharpest corner of the shim and you should be able to start a thin shim peeling off.
Click to expand...

Tom, I take a pliers hold one end of the shim and take a lighter and heat the other end of the shim on both sides, maybe 5 sec. each and it will melt the glue. Try it some time and see what you think.
 
wrndln said:
There is a product called Timesaver that is used to "lap" in babbitted bearings. The Navy uses it on their large ship engines and many model T people use it on their babbitted engines - model A's - not so much (why, I don't know). I use it on my babbitted engines to achieve near 100% contact with the crank and rod journals. It will renew old babbitt if the babbitt is still salvageable and there are enough shims left between the caps and rod or block. Timesaver is guaranteed not to embed in the babbitt and self degrades to a benign compound when its work is done. I think my kit - course (used by far the most), medium, fine and extra fine was about $80. I have had good luck with it. BTW, I have no affiliation with the Timesaver maker.
Rusty Nelson
Click to expand...
You don't ever want contact between the crank and bearing journals! That would cause a failure in short time. The crank journal surface runs on a wedge of oil approximately .00075 thick when the engine is running. you will always have slight imperfections that don't matter so 100% is not achievable. You are just deceiving yourself.
 
One more issue... I swear, they never stop. Have a crack between the exhaust seat (loose term really - no seat left due to erosion) and the cylinder. Crack runs about 5/8 inch down the cylinder. Can this be fixed without exposing the block to temps that will destroy the babbitt main bearing material I am hoping to save?

Can you tell that I am trying to save/use my block?
 
Pin the crack, install sleeve's and valve seats, no heat involved (other then what is generated by cutting tools).
 
bhut said:
One more issue... I swear, they never stop. Have a crack between the exhaust seat (loose term really - no seat left due to erosion) and the cylinder. Crack runs about 5/8 inch down the cylinder. Can this be fixed without exposing the block to temps that will destroy the babbitt main bearing material I am hoping to save?

Can you tell that I am trying to save/use my block?
Click to expand...

Crack in the block can be saved by pinning the block (a search will reveal a recent thread on this).

The original blocks did not have a separate valve seat but rather it was formed into the block. It is common today to replace the machining of the block with actual seats.
 
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