Help keep a grown man from crying

A

armchair67

Senior Member
Hello All! I'm pretty new here and a week ago purchased my first Ford Model A, a restored Tudor sedan. I've driven it everywhere I normally go since buying it-to my shop, errands etc. I was expecting some issues and well I've got some!

The positive is I love this thing so far-what a fun car to drive. Now to the issue at hand.

Car ran good the first two days. Day 3 was running good but stopped after 2-3 minutes of driving. Almost as if it was out of fuel. After letting it sit a minute or two it restarted only to repeat that little act a few minutes later. Again it started back up. Day 4 it died one time on way to Work but again restarted after couple mins. That night I cleaned sediment from fuel bowl (car was driven little after it was restored some years ago). Got sediment out of it too. Next day, car ran great. Next day was harder than usual to start but ran well. This morning was hard to start and ran crappy-like it was missing or something.

I felt it the dying out was almost like it was out of gas. My thought was maybe the needle valve in the carb was sticking. So I stopped at my local Model A store today (yes I'm lucky to live near one!) to buy a carb rebuild hit. The Owner also suggested it may be ignition related and I purchased a set of modern points to replace the original type ones.

Car barely started and ran lousy pulling it into my shop. Once in I replaced the points set up and triple checked the timing etc. Car would not start at all. Also replaced that needle valve and car still won't start even on starting fluid. I'm getting spark out of the leads and plugs are decent condition.

Banging my head against the wall so any ideas would be welcome!
 
One thing I should mention is that with the update kit I left the original style Condensor out of the distributor completely.
 
OK lets see;

fuel
air
spark
at the right time

What troubles me is that you say "won't start even on starting fluid." that eliminates the whole fuel system.

Air - how is the compression? Remove the plugs and a simple test is can you hold your thumb over the hole while the starter is turning. If yes check for sticky valves.

Spark, are you are sure you are getting a nice fat blue spark to the plugs while you used the starter fluid?

At the right time, Changing out the complete distributor innards for "modern" most likely was not the best thing to do. Are you sure #1 was at TDC when you timed it?

In the beginning it just sounded like the gas cap vent was plugged but now, we need some more info.
 
I thought about the gas cap issue early on and the second time it had trouble starting I pulled it off and nothing changed. I may reinstall the old points system and see where things are at. Pretty sure I have it timed properly but will recheck that also
 
The rusty fuel tank flakes is the first thing I suspected, clogging jets. So if did the flush as you mention and yes I did get some debris out. I think my mistake was doing the points first when I should have eliminated my original suspension. When I pulled the carb apart it was clean as a whistle inside, blew air easily through all the jets.
 
I had a piece of crud floating around in my tank. Things would be going great then sputter like out of gas. Finally could see it at the bottom of the tank. It looked like a piece of burlap. It would just glide back and forth in the tank and ever so often settle over the gas feed. Once out all was fine.
 
Let's try to eliminate the carb as the problem. Are you using the choke? The choke should be necessary only when cold and even then used sparingly. The choke rod should NOT be held out indefinitely. If the engine doesn't start very quickly it will flood the engine. The choke should be held out about two compression strokes on average and released.

Is the carb dumping any gas on the floor after it fails to start? When the choke is pulled the engine draws a bunch of raw fuel. When the engine quits turning and drawing, all the fuel that hasn't made it over the top of the manifold flows back down, through the carb, and onto the floor.

Since the engine is failing to start, the mouth of the carb SHOULD be wet with gas and if you've tried more than once with the choke it should actually drip some gas out of the carb. If the carb is very wet then it is NOT a fuel delivery issue. If the mouth of the carb remains dry then it isn't getting gas. If it is wet as described then there is either an ignition problem or the engine is being flooded. Of course a weak ignition will flood much easier.
 
I agree, eliminate the carb if fuel is dripping out the choke end. I feel that the make shift V8 points setup has caused more model A problems than any other. Without a condenser mounted in the lower distributor housing, it is easier for the lower plate connection to ground out in the distributor housing. This can easily happen if the armored cable is tightened too far into the distributor housing as has been mentioned in recent threads on this forum. There could be a problem with loose wire end connections on the wire that runs from the lower to upper distributor plate or a bad wire itself. All of this is more likely brought to light when you installed the so called modern points setup. The initial problem was likely a weak condenser or coil. Condenser and coil problems usually show up after warm up or when the engine experiences the slightest strain.

You state that the spark is yellow and weak . I would reinstall the original points setup with a new short proof condenser and give the lower plate wire a thorough inspection. Care must be given to the connection of the lower plate wire to the original points to be sure that the wire end connection doesn't short against the distributor housing. I would thoroughly sand the points contacts to remove any oxidation or pits and set the gap anywhere from .018 to .022. I usually prefer the wider gap but never exceed .022 or less than .018 . Most prefer .020 . I would install the stand up filter that fits inside the cutoff valve under the tank. There have been some micro filters that should be avoided in all cases. I only use the mesh filters because the micro filters with stop up completely with micro particals that would pass through the carb with no problem otherwise. I would avoid most carburetor kits because the jets are often improper length or size. I always try and use original numbered jets. Many a model A Zenith carb has been messed up with repro kits.
 
armchair67 said:
The rusty fuel tank flakes is the first thing I suspected, clogging jets. So if did the flush as you mention and yes I did get some debris out. I think my mistake was doing the points first when I should have eliminated my original suspension. When I pulled the carb apart it was clean as a whistle inside, blew air easily through all the jets.
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My car did the same because of the fine rust particles. Put a filter on the gas line and a can of Sea Foam, 16 oz, cleaned the carb.
 
I agree that there are two different problems.

I am surprised that some didn't suggest that the first problem might be vapor lock -common on older vehicles

The second - not starting now - certainly sounds like an electrical problem but since you also messed with the carb it could be flooding
 
Hi Armchair,

Banging my head against the wall so any ideas would be welcome!

A. Step one is to quit banging.

B. In Step 2, what you describe sounds almost as familiar as watching the same Buggs Bunny Cartoon 3 months in a row; sounds like your 80+ year old gas tank debris is plugging the fuel line because of moving around a lot; & if it were mine, I'd try this:

1. Go back to original distributor points -- they worked flawlessly on over 20,000,000 Model A's with no problems.

2. Go to your parts store, buy & install an A9193-T gas tank screen to filter gas tank debris.

C. If these two (2) do not work, & if it stops again, "Good": (forget radar, computers, & x-ray) & try this Step 3 age old diagnosis for won't start when it absolutely will "NOT" start -- you can also try this Step 3 as Step 2:

a. Turn ignition switch OFF, pull out choke, allow engine to turn about 12-15 revolutions, & "immediately" remove spark plugs; if wet w/gas, usually not a fuel problem; if dry, usually fuel starvation.

b. Leave plugs out laying on sides, turn switch ON -- rotate engine & check plugs for fire; no spark, ignition problem; see spark usually not electrical problem.

D. If you go to a modern Ford dealer & ask a young mechanic to try paragraph C., expect the White Coats to come by to haul you away to a psycho lab at the hospital to try to find which Old Folks Home you escaped from.

E. Now, if you have a horse or mule, & he will not move forward, it involves an entirely different vintage procedure that today's car owners never heard of.

Hope this helps & never get too serious -- it usually causes stress & poor health.
 
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Thanks for the advice guys. If thought of vapor lock except that this has occurred after only a couple of minutes of driving. Plus it has been hard to start intermittently.

I've replaced the original points and at least I now get a backfire, which I think is better than the absolutely nothing with the new points setup. I was confident I had the timing correct but this backfiring is telling me otherwise so I'm gonna run through it.

Not frustrated at the old iron by any means, I knew that a car that was seldom used would have some issues and it is part of getting me to know this car a little better - like the old saying take care if it, and it will take care of you, it and I are in this together.
 
If you didn't replace the condenser, replace it with an original style short proof condenser as this was probably the problem in the first place. The timing may be off and here is a simple way to set it. At this point, you've got nothing to loose . Remove and dry or clean up the spark plugs. While the spark plugs are out, Insert the timing pin and turn the engine untill the timing pin drops in place. Forget all of the stuff about the spark lever and points if the points have already been set within the range of .018 to .022 . With the timing pin on the mark, loosen and adjust the distributor cam so that the trailing tip of the rotor points at the number one plug contact in the distributor cap. There will be rotational movement or backlash in the distributor shaft. When you tighten the distributor cam the trailing edge of the rotor tip needs to point exactly at the number one contact in the distributor cap with no clockwise movement in the distributor shaft . In other words , all of the free play movement must be in the counter clockwise direction where it will have no effect on timing. There is no easier or better way to set the timing and if the coil and condenser is good and there are no shorts in the distributor, you should be good to go. Try it. As i've said, you've got nothing to lose.
 
armchair67 said:
Spark was, to me, not super strong and more of an orange
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I've seen two different cars, that would fire, then die , and not start(which low voltage would Amplify), then repeat, ect. It was a week coil. You can get one àt napa for pretty cheap, and if that's not the problem, then you now have an emergency back up coil.
 
Purdy it fired up with the modern points system in place and your simplified method of timing I also installed the old Condensor in the distributor body and I'm not sure it that makes a difference. It runs pretty lousy but at least it's a step In the right direction! One thing I'm confused about is that you told me to pint the rotor at number one vs the book which says the opposite of number one. With the book method this thing made some backfiring with the old points in and zilch with the new inches. Aiming at number one with modern points and it at least started up.
 
With the timing pin in the cam gear indent, the rotor should be in this position with any freeplay to the left of the rotor. In other words you can't move the rotor clockwise by lightly trying to move it, but you might be able to move it counterclockwise as the freeplay is taken up.

When books say the rotor should point opposite the number one contact, they mean "next to". Remember in 8th grade gym class when all the boys lined up on one side of the black line and all the girls lined up on the other side, and you had to choose the girl opposite you for your dance partner during dance lessons. Same idea, opposite means "facing".
 

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I'll let the experts chime in on the technical stuff, but as a 7 month owner of a Model A myself, I keep in mind that my car is 83 years old and as such it will have issues much than a modern car... Heck my car stalled out today as I was about to do a left hand turn.... (Likely cause was fuel vacuum at the gas cap...) I'm still growing my Model A skin thicker. :) Good Luck, with your old Gal and enjoy --and keep the AAA card handy...
 
armchair67 said:
Purdy it fired up with the modern points system in place and your simplified method of timing I also installed the old Condensor in the distributor body and I'm not sure it that makes a difference. It runs pretty lousy but at least it's a step In the right direction! One thing I'm confused about is that you told me to pint the rotor at number one vs the book which says the opposite of number one. With the book method this thing made some backfiring with the old points in and zilch with the new inches. Aiming at number one with modern points and it at least started up.
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The problem now is that you are still trying to run the so called modern points. Its still a wonder that it runs at all. You should run the original style condenser with the original style points . The original style condenser holds the lower plate so that it is less likely to short against the distributor housing but is supposed to be used with original points. This is just another example of the problems that the mistakes in the mechanics hand book and modern points will cause for the model A and the inexperienced new owner. Don't feel bad , its not your fault . Set the rotor exactly like Tom shows after you replace the upper plate with the original points and adjust as I explained in my previous post.
 
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