help identifying 40 ford convertible
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37 Coupe
Well-known member
Interesting the Ohio title and Pickaway County not far from me. 50-55 years ago there was what I thought was a black 1940 Ford 4 door convertible showing up occaisonally in town in the summer. Only access I had then as a kid was AMT to i.d a certain model or year of an early Ford or my dad. Wasn't even close to a 39 or a 40 Ford found out years later it was a 1936 Ford Phaeton with a 1940 Ford front end,never noticed the flat windshield I guess. Unique car that I think is still close by was Wanda Connors in Blacklick Ohio but back in the day was close to Circleville and Pickaway County.
Kube
Super Moderator
Oh boy, I am very apprehensive to weigh in on this one. Why? Because I am nearly certain I'll have a number of guys tell me I am full of poopy, etc.
I chose to weigh in well, for one, I've been called worse (by better men) and two, I do have a little research experience with these supposed "40 convertible sedans".
Now, here's what I had found out about these orphans: _________________
That's right, nothing, zip, zero, nada. There was never any documentation uncovered by me nor anyone else that I am aware of that Ford actually built any of these cars.
I began my look in to these way back in the 1980's.
There were stories, photos, rumors, but no documentation.
Where's that leave us? Well, in my humble opinion, Ford did NOT create these cars. As Deuce has advised, this would be a rather simple project for anyone with good body craft skills. Plus, keep in mind that when these cars were stating to be "discovered" in the late 50's / early 60's, the "donor cars" ('39 conv. sedan & 40 anything) had little to no value. Also, the "heyday" of modifying cars. I also need to pose this question: "Why is there no record of these from 1940 forward"? They seemingly "popped up" in the late 50's.
Deuce made another very valid point. Numbers matching frame, transmission and title are all too easy to acquire and / or manufacture. In fact, this car would be simple to build - far easier than some serious restorations I've done.
The two factory equipped Mercury engine'd 1940 Fords I have had (still have one) were purchased by me with full documentation right back to build "sheets". Plus, I did research to find corresponding proof that these two vehicles were as they were purported to be.
I have witnessed first hand 1940 Ford convertible coupes, yep, rumble seat, floor shift... beautiful cars. Ford never built one but I had on two separate occasions two different guys insisting they were "real". Yes, I'd agree...real cars. No, not Ford built.
That old wives tale of these being built for the Worlds Fair... really? Does it not seem odd that Ford would have built them so late in to 1940 production (according to the number on the one in this thread)? That number puts it in the late January to perhaps mid to late February build.
Not sure if all '39 convertible sedans had a body number plate. My guess would be "yes". I have had numerous '40 convertibles and most (all but one) had a body plate. Even that one had the nail holes for the body plate rivets, plate being absent. Every '39 convertible I have had, has had a body plate as well.
Oh, one more thing on this thought... even the '40 coupes with factory equipped Mercury engines had body plates. And, in two of three that I know of, had the cowl stamped to indicate Mercury engine'd Ford.
My current '40 convertible has both a body plate and the cowl stamped to indicate this "anomaly".
The point being: Ford did tend to keep control of what they were building.
Bottom line? As has been advised previously, be skeptical, be VERY skeptical.
Ford did tend to document - very well in fact, any "customs / prototype' cars they authorized. The lack of anything mentioning this car leads me to believe (to reiterate) this car never happened at Ford or "by" Ford.
I try my best to keep an open mind about this type of thing and to that point, and in regard to this particular vehicle, I would welcome proof contrary to my opinion of its pedigree.
As a final note I truly would enjoy thoughtful responses to this thread.
Respectfully,
Mike "Kube" Kubarth
I chose to weigh in well, for one, I've been called worse (by better men) and two, I do have a little research experience with these supposed "40 convertible sedans".
Now, here's what I had found out about these orphans: _________________
That's right, nothing, zip, zero, nada. There was never any documentation uncovered by me nor anyone else that I am aware of that Ford actually built any of these cars.
I began my look in to these way back in the 1980's.
There were stories, photos, rumors, but no documentation.
Where's that leave us? Well, in my humble opinion, Ford did NOT create these cars. As Deuce has advised, this would be a rather simple project for anyone with good body craft skills. Plus, keep in mind that when these cars were stating to be "discovered" in the late 50's / early 60's, the "donor cars" ('39 conv. sedan & 40 anything) had little to no value. Also, the "heyday" of modifying cars. I also need to pose this question: "Why is there no record of these from 1940 forward"? They seemingly "popped up" in the late 50's.
Deuce made another very valid point. Numbers matching frame, transmission and title are all too easy to acquire and / or manufacture. In fact, this car would be simple to build - far easier than some serious restorations I've done.
The two factory equipped Mercury engine'd 1940 Fords I have had (still have one) were purchased by me with full documentation right back to build "sheets". Plus, I did research to find corresponding proof that these two vehicles were as they were purported to be.
I have witnessed first hand 1940 Ford convertible coupes, yep, rumble seat, floor shift... beautiful cars. Ford never built one but I had on two separate occasions two different guys insisting they were "real". Yes, I'd agree...real cars. No, not Ford built.
That old wives tale of these being built for the Worlds Fair... really? Does it not seem odd that Ford would have built them so late in to 1940 production (according to the number on the one in this thread)? That number puts it in the late January to perhaps mid to late February build.
Not sure if all '39 convertible sedans had a body number plate. My guess would be "yes". I have had numerous '40 convertibles and most (all but one) had a body plate. Even that one had the nail holes for the body plate rivets, plate being absent. Every '39 convertible I have had, has had a body plate as well.
Oh, one more thing on this thought... even the '40 coupes with factory equipped Mercury engines had body plates. And, in two of three that I know of, had the cowl stamped to indicate Mercury engine'd Ford.
My current '40 convertible has both a body plate and the cowl stamped to indicate this "anomaly".
The point being: Ford did tend to keep control of what they were building.
Bottom line? As has been advised previously, be skeptical, be VERY skeptical.
Ford did tend to document - very well in fact, any "customs / prototype' cars they authorized. The lack of anything mentioning this car leads me to believe (to reiterate) this car never happened at Ford or "by" Ford.
I try my best to keep an open mind about this type of thing and to that point, and in regard to this particular vehicle, I would welcome proof contrary to my opinion of its pedigree.
As a final note I truly would enjoy thoughtful responses to this thread.
Respectfully,
Mike "Kube" Kubarth
TJ
Well-known member
A photo of the paper work on the car tells us absolutely nothing. A 39 convertible sedan body could have been moved to a 40 chassis and the front end changed etc. A very easy task to convert the car to a 40. Column shift? No problem you just change the column which you would do if you moved the body to a 40 chassis. Unless there is some documentation in the Ford archives it's not a real 40. Lots of urban legends out there when it comes to old cars.
Kube
Super Moderator
Ya know, I am going to follow this (interesting) thread and hopefully, no one will mind if I chime in here and there.
At this moment, I would like to comment on TJ's post:
TJ has very accurately pointed out how easy this car could have been created and also how easy it would have been to acquire the "paper" shown along with this car.
I like his "urban legends" comment. That reminds me of all the stories of the cars that came out of California museums. Must be thousands of car museums for that many cars to have been stored out there
37 Coupe
Well-known member
Also I think if Ford was showing or promoting a 4 door convertible or needed on for the worlds fair they would have showcased what they already had the 1940 Mercury not build special Fords. Sorta like the question why did Ford make a club convertible,an enclosed back seat versus or along with a rumble seat open car in 1936 1937 1938 and in 1939 not offer a convertible coupe car but resort to the rumble seat again? If you wanted that you had to buy the new Mercury sport convertible.
Vic Piano
Well-known member
Every '39 Ford CS has a body number plate on the firewall, mine is #1,507 out of a total of 3,561 '39 CS's built. As others have said, you could create a '40 Ford CS using a '40 frame and running gear along with the '39 CS body. My cars Vin # makes it is a mid to late production car, which would indicate that the body # (mid production) and Vin # have no correlation relevant to actual production dates... Further, the Certificate of title in the photo shows Model 01A, that indicates a 1940 deluxe but does not describe the body style. For example, the '39 Ford CS ID is 91A-74B while the only convertible listing for Ford in 1940 is; 01A-76A, Deluxe Convertible Club Coupe. Just adding info to the conundrum...
kube, thanks for the input.
let me start off that im not trying to argue with anyone that it is or isnt a real 40. just mearly trying to figure it out.
couple of things. is there any photos that anyone would like to see of the car in maybe some special places to help identfy this car? pics of the welds on the firewall? some bracket someware that might be diffrent? im going to go find the trans tunnel cover here in a min and look it over.
do you guys think it would be worth the time to go up to michigan and go through the arcives? i read on there site it burnt down in 1970 and there isnt much left on these models.
let me start off that im not trying to argue with anyone that it is or isnt a real 40. just mearly trying to figure it out.
couple of things. is there any photos that anyone would like to see of the car in maybe some special places to help identfy this car? pics of the welds on the firewall? some bracket someware that might be diffrent? im going to go find the trans tunnel cover here in a min and look it over.
do you guys think it would be worth the time to go up to michigan and go through the arcives? i read on there site it burnt down in 1970 and there isnt much left on these models.
Every '39 Ford CS has a body number plate on the firewall, mine is #1,507 out of a total of 3,561 '39 CS's built. As others have said, you could create a '40 Ford CS using a '40 frame and running gear along with the '39 CS body. My cars Vin # makes it is a mid to late production car, which would indicate that the body # (mid production) and Vin # have no correlation relevant to actual production dates... Further, the Certificate of title in the photo shows Model 01A, that indicates a 1940 deluxe but does not describe the body style. For example, the '39 Ford CS ID is 91A-74B while the only convertible listing for Ford in 1940 is; 01A-76A, Deluxe Convertible Club Coupe. Just adding info to the conundrum...
it is a very good posibility that back in the 50's they made some "corrections" to the title when it was transfered.
Vic Piano
Well-known member
Altering registrations or titles (on purpose or by mistake) is nothing new. Case in point; when I got my '39 CS the registration listed the car as a Sedan. Regardless of changes that might have been made to paperwork relating to a particular vehicle, all the available information from Ford indicates that there were no '40 Ford Convertible Sedans built by the company.
Kube
Super Moderator
I did not once think you were looking to argue. I felt you were attempting to sort out this anomaly.
There is a ton of information in the Benson Ford Research Center covering 1939 -1940. In fact, it can easily become overwhelming.
Will a trip there help you? Possibly, but my guess is only in that it may put to rest any questions you may possibly still have.
I never found anything that even in a remote way mentioned this "model".
Now, did I over look something? Possibly. Was something found and cataloged later? Possibly.
i once applied for a title for a 1930 packard phaeton. the car was photographed for the title app, and the first title that came back stated that it was a 2 door! i went to the dmv and argued that you could see 4 doors, and it has a convertable top, which is called a phaeton. the second title came back calling it a 4 door ! i quit after that. my point is, what it says on the title means nothing in my opinion. skip
37 Coupe
Well-known member
About 25 years ago I was transferring or attempting to a Ohio title for my 1939 Ford convertible coupe. The title from 1957 left out the convertible part just said coupe and I tried to get gal to type in convertible.She got her boss claiming I was trying to pressure her into altering a title. Still says coupe.
this car was in a wreck.
someone bought a regular 40 ford, and replaced everything on the car that was damaged with 40 parts, including the frame and drive train. and threw away the 39 title.
sad in many ways.
as u can see the welds on the firewall replacemnt were not done very well. but it did get some resistance welds
the trans cover was modded to fit the 40 firewall and the floor shifter was patched up
someone bought a regular 40 ford, and replaced everything on the car that was damaged with 40 parts, including the frame and drive train. and threw away the 39 title.
sad in many ways.
as u can see the welds on the firewall replacemnt were not done very well. but it did get some resistance welds
the trans cover was modded to fit the 40 firewall and the floor shifter was patched up
mhsprecher
Well-known member
Fascinating thread and mystery solved. What are you going to do with it. Restore it, I hope.
