Head studs

ldreeg

ldreeg

Well-known member
I'm installing a Brumfield High-Compression head (not sure if it is 5.5 or 6.1).

Should I replace the original head studs with Chrome-Moly or Grade 8 bolts? Or re-use the original stus?

Bratton's has Grade 8 with rolled threads, guaranteed not to stretch and Snyder's and Bert's have Chrome-Moly, guaranteed not to stretch.

I read here that you want a little stretch. What is recommended?

Also, with the stronger head studs, they recommend 65 ft lbs of torque.

I broke the ear off my early 1930 style water neck at 55 lbs.

Thanks.
 
Do not use original studs.

Use Grade 8 or chrome-moly.

I would torque the head to 55-60 #lbs.

I would use the "Best" Kevlar reinforced graphite gasket.

I would use spray copper coat on both sides of the gasket and install wet.

Be sure the block and head surfaces are flat and CLEAN. Use acetone or lacquer thinner as a final clean up right before you install the head.

Do not use a gasket on the upper water neck. Use a little RTV silicone.

Re-torque the head a few times after running the engine and letting it set overnight so it is cold. The Best gasket will usually take a set after initial installation, and you may find the initial torque will hold as it.

This is my recommendation.

Chris W.
 
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I agree with CWPASADENA, except for the copper spray. Rich Faluka of Antique Engine Rebuilding recommended using the Best graphite gasket dry, no sealer at all.
 
You mentioned grade 8 bolts, use studs NOT bolts !
What the other two have said is good info so I have nothing to add
 
AL in NY said:
I agree with CWPASADENA, except for the copper spray. Rich Faluka of Antique Engine Rebuilding recommended using the Best graphite gasket dry, no sealer at all.
Click to expand...

I followed Rich’s advice on installing a 6.0 head on his short block, he laughed about me wanting grade 8 studs, not needed he said. Graphite gasket with a little grease and a final torque of 65# , starting at 55#, then after an initial run 60#, after many torque’s I finally got brave and torqued to 65#. No runs no drips no errors ! Noted that he sent me standard studs.

As for cracking the ears on the water out has nothing to do with torque, it has to do with uneven surfaces between the head and the outlet. It’s easy to surface to outlet by hand on a flat surface with sand paper, lapping in an figure 8. Making the head flat would best be left to machine shop. You may wonder how or why these surfaces become uneven, someone grinding or wearing the old gaskets off. An old automotive mechanic showed me how to make your own gaskets and how to surface by lapping then smooth and level!
 
I've had good experience with the Snyder's high strength studs and grade 8 nuts (Snyder's sells a package, just ordered another set today), Best 509 gasket with copper spray, and torque to 55 (standard head) and 65 (high compression head). As mentioned elsewhere, do the torque in steps (I do 35-45-55-65), repeat the 65 after heating up and cooling, then at 50 miles and again at 500 miles. And it's never a bad idea to deck your head, but you can also use a good straightedge in all directions (I have a 24", not sure when I got it but it sure is useful). I resurface the head if I get more than 0.002" gap under the straightedge.

For the upper gooseneck: a trick taught to me more years ago than I care to admit: put a paper match stick (not the flame end, the other end) at the outside edge of each ear. Use a gasket, Permatex your choice. Torque as necessary. The paper match stick will compress to take up any unevenness otherwise imparted by the mating surface and keep the ears from breaking off. (That is, if you can even find paper matches any more. Remember when every restaurant had them in a wicker basket at the cash register? So you could go from there to the cigarette machine on your way out the door.) This has worked for me for over 50 years. Works on the lower gooseneck, too.
 
JayJay - Speaking of matches, my mother used to collect cool matchbooks from swanky Manhattan nightspots, restaurants, “supper clubs”, and so on. Sounds glamorous but I think she just would walk in and take them as souvenirs. I remember swizzle sticks imprinted with names of nightclubs, too. Some were “naughty” with profiles of dancing girls and so on. I haven’t used the terms swanky, supper club, or swizzle stick in several decades. Ha!
She kept them in a giant brandy snifter (fishbowl size) in the living room. My uncle Murray was a practical joker. He’s stealthily grab a handful of matchbooks when he came in, and then casually mention he found some interesting ones for her and toss them into the bowl. He was getting thanked for giving my mother her own matchbooks back. What a card! (There’s another term from way back when.) “Close cover before striking”
 
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Last I knew the head gasket of choice for the Brumfield head is the Felpro 7013 revision 4. I had a head gasket failure about 5 years ago and replaced it with the Felpro, good so far. Got the gasket from Brattons.
 
Not exactly relatd to the OP'S thread about head studs, but close. Here are some interesting observations about Head Gaskets.
The space between number 3 and 4 cylinder and the space between number 1 and 2 on a Felpro 7013 R3 and R4 is 180 Thousands of an inch - .180.


The space on a BEST 509 between number 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 is 260 thousands- .260.


The space between number 1 n 2 an 3 n 4 on a No Name #5736 is .280.


The No Name is a gasket a friend brought in yesterday. I do not know where he got it. We are installing his Snyder 6.1 head today. We will use the Best 509 that I have on the shelf.



All three gaskets are copper on both sides and the thickness is the same. Teh FelPro and the Best are at first look a better made gasket than the NO Name.


My guess is the FelPro is design for the engines that have been overbores .080 and larger. The Best fit the engine that do not have the large overbore.


Ya'll have a good day. ken
 
Thank you all for the input. And yes, I mistyped bolts for studs. It looks like the Snyder's B-6051-XO is the Best 509G I have read about and looks like the best choice.
I originally went for Fine-Point and had a copper clad gasket under my water neck with paper matches and still broke. I plan on paper with the matches this time. It is a new Brumfield head 5.9 likely so should be flat. I think I read that with the graphite gasket not to use copper spray but will confirm with Snyder's.
Thank you all again for the excellent advise as always.
 
ldreeg said:
Thank you all for the input. And yes, I mistyped bolts for studs. It looks like the Snyder's B-6051-XO is the Best 509G I have read about and looks like the best choice.
I originally went for Fine-Point and had a copper clad gasket under my water neck with paper matches and still broke. I plan on paper with the matches this time. It is a new Brumfield head 5.9 likely so should be flat. I think I read that with the graphite gasket not to use copper spray but will confirm with Snyder's.
Thank you all again for the excellent advise as always.
Click to expand...

The graphite gasket can be installed dry if the mating surface is in excellent condition. For mine, I used copper spray on the block side only because it had some imperfections. Dry installation makes disassembly easier.
 
alexiskai said:
The graphite gasket can be installed dry if the mating surface is in excellent condition. For mine, I used copper spray on the block side only because it had some imperfections. Dry installation makes disassembly easier.
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No question about that. If you use the copper spray the gasket will split down the middle of the graphite section when you remove it, and you'll be faced with significant scraping on both the head and the block. Been there, done that twice in the last six months! It's worth it to me, though, to have better reassurance that the doggone thing will seal.
 
I recommend the Best #509 copper. Install putting a light coat of silver paint, let dry, spray a heavier coat and install when tacky. Copper Coat never dries, paint does and acts like a glue, holds the gasket in place better. Graphite gaskets require a lot of scraping to remove if and when you need to pull the head, copper does not. Both need re-torqueing several times, especially the copper.
 
I called Bratton's for the FelPro 7013 that Brumfields recommended and they didn't have them anymore. I talked to Snyder's and they said they heard of people having problems with the Best 509G on a Brimfield Head and recommended the FelPro 7013. I ordered one online from NAPA for $50.99 plus the Best 509G from Snyder's for $28.50. Now I'll have a choice plus a backup if the first one fails. Thanks again all.
 
I wouldn't go with the paper and matches for your water outlet neck. Still too much of a chance of breaking an ear off unnecessarily. Use a flat file working from all directions filing both mating surfaces smooth and flat then use a very thin layer of rtv sealant. I've never had one leak or broken an ear when doing this.
Allow any squeeze out to dry and then trim off later.
 
1crosscut said:
I wouldn't go with the paper and matches for your water outlet neck. Still too much of a chance of breaking an ear off unnecessarily. Use a flat file working from all directions filing both mating surfaces smooth and flat then use a very thin layer of rtv sealant. I've never had one leak or broken an ear when doing this.
Allow any squeeze out to dry and then trim off later.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I probably should try that.
 
The slide shows what I have been doing with success for many years. You need to understand the bending stress situation on the casting's lugs. Using a stock thick gasket produces a tension stress field (downward bending) that cracks the lugs. The use of matches under the lugs with a stock (thick) gasket reverses the bending stress so the the lugs see compression in lieu of tension. However, the best solution to avoid cracking the lugs is to eliminate the bending stress by assuring the faying surfaces are flat and the gasket is paper thin.
 

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This won’t help the show cars, but if you install a Vintage Precision thermostat adapter you effectively remove the flatness of the head surface from consideration. Then it’s all on the flatness of the gooseneck. The VP adapters are installed with no gaskets, just Permatex 2, RTV or equivalent.
 
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