charles=fla
Senior Member
a club member ask me to post aquestion: on rod or main babbit, how are the groves put in the babitt...??...thanks ..charles..
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groves in babbit ques
- Thread starter charles=fla
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Gary WA
Well-known member
Go to my site www.whidbeymodelaclub.com then go to Photos under The Murray Motor photos You will see bad groves and toward the end no. 42/43 photo you will see the tool for grooving in action. enjoy Gary.
Model A Man
Well-known member
on both my Model A's the rear main have no groves. Is this bad or good?
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
All bearings should have grooves, and the parting lines beveled to within about 1/4 inch of each end. Check Gary WA photo gallery, Murray Motor, linked above. #23 shows a rear main, probably done with a dremel tool. #24 and 25 show poorly done front or center mains, also with a dremel tool. KR Wilson made the Ford grooving tools. I dont know any other mfr who made them, they are hard to find and few rebuilders have them, so dremel tools with a rounded cutting head are used a lot. The dremel grooves are better than nothing, but not very precise. The parting line reliefs for rods and mains can be cut with a file if you are careful, but again, better than nothing but not very precise. The January 2010 Restorer has an article on this subject.
James Rogers
Well-known member
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Well PC, I see things a little different then you do. I have had several pickup loads, and made alot of money on resale, of K.R. Wilson tools. My first babbitt equipment was New in crates K.R.Wilson, for T, A, B, and V-8's, and alot of other Wilson tools. It came from the old ford garage close to me, before they built a new bulding. Well the Main grovers I tried to use on the first Model A block I done, .020 under, guess what, they will not fit any thing but standard, with alot of machining you can machine them, but alot of work. Then when that is done, you find the cutter is to short. I have seen many of those sets mutilated because of it. Even when you use them on a standard crank, the groove is to much of a whimp. Now the uses of machine cutters, or your Dremel cutters. (( Advantages,)) you can make any depth groove, any width, any place, dead end grooves, S grooves, Y grooves Ect. Now the ((Disadvantages,)) Thinking, Thinking, Thinking, MMMMMMMM, I cant think of a one. The groove at the part lines on T, A, and B rods, are all put in with Broaches, Rod grooves, X's, circles, Oil Wells, we have machines for that. Some Oil wells we put in with the Dremel. With all that said, you can't compare a dremel job done by some one who has 10 thumbs, to anything good. Thanks Mr. P.C., Herm.
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John Stone
Well-known member
I use a Dremel to cut the oil well but still use the KRW tools to cut the grooves. All I did was do a little grinding on the curved part of the tools and use them for up .030 under cranks with no problem with the length of the cutter. The second engine we had to cut the oil grooves by hand.
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Keith True
Well-known member
The man I used to use for my babbit work used a mechanical cutter.I don't know what brand it was,but it did a nice clean job.He showed me some babbit molds with the groove forms molded in.He said he never would use them.He felt that they created harder spots at the edges of the molded in grooves,something to do with not cooling evenly enough.There must have been something in that theory to convince him,he hated the tedious work of fitting the cutting tool,then cranking it to make the cut,clean,check,and possibly make the cut again if enough was not taken the first time.He passed away a while back so I can't ask him.I had a block done by a 'reputable' shop in Maine in about 1998,the grooves were cut with a die grinder,and it looks like it was done by the guy with the 10 thumbs.They made sure the grooves were deep enough,they went right into the block.
Model A Man
Well-known member
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Ya, Keith, your right, grooves that go in to the cast iron, will put oil between the babbitt, and the block, and oil does not transfer heat very well. If the babbitt is not peened right, it will also start cracking off of the bad groove. Another place is the oil line hole, we always take 3 small punches to punch out the hole, small first, and two more in stages. the last we take a drill, to clean the pipe, just so it is small enough to not hurt the pipe. What the punches do first is peen the babbitt around the hole, so it keeps the oil out. Any thing that is Tinned, the grooves can go to the shell with out any problems. Thanks Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Keith, I was going to comment on the molds you talked about. The problem with grooves in the mold, is they have to be fit to the shell you are going to pour. Many times the groove on the mold will bottom out, and you can pour all day, unless it is real hot, and the babbitt will not run togather, as it can't, as it would be the same as cutting a groove to the cast iron. The groove should be at least .030 from the bottom., and also the oil wells should be fit, if they have any, so that they will fill out. Thanks Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
I use a Dremel to cut the oil well but still use the KRW tools to cut the grooves. All I did was do a little grinding on the curved part of the tools and use them for up .030 under cranks with no problem with the length of the cutter. The second engine we had to cut the oil grooves by hand.
Your bearing looks good. Herm.
Hi Herm: Two KR Wilson groove cutting tools I have seen had adjustable cutters. I do not know how deep they would cut. Nothing particularly wrong with a Dremel Tool to cut grooves except as I say, lack of precision which I think is a disadvantage. Check the pics of the grooves linked in GAry WA's post above. And every dremel cut I have seen has been been rough and uneven in the grooves which I think would cause some weakness in the bearing if too deep, though you know more than me about babbitting and how deep you can go. One engine I had did not have any grooves in any of the main caps and some strange shaped dremel grooves in the block sides which I discovered when the center main started knocking. Who knows why or if it was the fault of the grooves? No parting line reliefs in either the rods or mains. I cut dremel grooves in the caps and filed the reliefs. The A is simple and tough, but I eventually took it to a guy who does only rebabbitt and has the Wilson tools and rebabitted the whole thing per Henry's specs. I sleep a little better. Pat
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Ya Mr. P.C., that would not have worked at all, short life. But it sounds like you caught it in time. Well, time to hit the hay, Herm.