Generator/Regulator Woe's

J

Jaydub211

Junior Member
Hello all. I seem to have an issue with the charging system on my 53' Ford Customline. It has a flathead in it and i have just replaced the generator with a new oem unit that has been tested by a reputable shop. I'm suspecting that my regulator (which is adjustable) is out of whack. However my problem is that I'm so new to the 6 volt systems i really have no idea where to start.

I should state that what started this whole ordeal was when i got the car i never saw the ammeter go to the charge side of the gauge. now with this new generator it's doing the same thing. When i hold the rpm at what i think is 1500 aprox. i see no movement on the ammeter. it sits a hair towards the "D" from the middle of the gauge. When the lights turn on it moves a quarter of the way to the "D".

I'm hoping there is a 6 volt guru that is willing to take me under their wing and teach me the ways of this because where I live everyone seems to think they're an expert up until you state its 6 volt positive ground. then the answer is to replace it to 12v.

anyway thank you in advance for any help and i hope once the car is charging properly to become a more active member of your community!
 
If it was run at the shop just before you got it it should not need to be polarised...otherwise take the field cable off the relay and touch the bat cable on the relay.
Still no reaction take the regulator to the shop that did the generator and let them test it...
There are a couple of resistors on the backside of the regulator if they are corroded in the riveting the cutout won´t work.
 
OK...if it goes to discharge when speeded up, either it's discharging or wire through ammeter loop is going through backwards...
Let engine go back to idle and feed it a discharge---turn on headlights and step on brake. Which way does gauge go with known discharge? Now rev it back up against the discharge and see what happens.
The charge rate, by the way, is closely regulated, so undernormal loads the regulation puts out just enough ampreage to balance the load with a very slight lean toward charge...so with a 20 amp load from lights, the output would be like 20.1 amps giving only the slightest lean towards charge. You will only see high charging rate on the gauge if battery is run down (leave on lights for 10 minutes with car turned off) and needs a major boost.
Polarity...you have normal 6V pos ground. At regulator, to polarize Disconnect the wire at the regulator terminal marked FLD and use it to momentarily (no longer than 2 seconds) touch the wire to the BAT terminal. There may be a brief spark; this is normal. Do NOT EVER follow directions to do the polarizing with a jumper between reg terminals! This is a procedure for a different (GM mostly) charging circuit that has different ground path.

(note--a fertile area of problems is poor ground path. Make up 2 simple jumpers, pieces of wire with little alligator clips at each end. Jump from G terminal on generator to base stamping of reg, then jump from there to battery ground terminal. See if anything happens)
 
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If all else fails try this: Put a jumper wire on the battery post on the back of the generator. Connect this wire to the "field" post on the side. Run the engine at a moderate speed. If the amp gauge shoots up "positive" you have a regulator problem. If the amp does little or nothing you are dealing with a generator problem.

Tom
 
flatheadfan said:
If all else fails try this: Put a jumper wire on the battery post on the back of the generator. Connect this wire to the "field" post on the side. Run the engine at a moderate speed. If the amp gauge shoots up "positive" you have a regulator problem. If the amp does little or nothing you are dealing with a generator problem.

Tom
Click to expand...

If the cutout on the regulator isn´t working you get no battery connection here...if it is working you have a chance of frying the regulator.

Remove the field cable at the regulator and touch the bat cable at regulator instead...still if cutout aint working nothing is going to show.
 
petehoovie said:
Are your battery cables reversed??? - Positive post needs to be grounded....
Click to expand...

They don't seem to be reversed. Negative on the battery is going to the starter, while the positive cable is connected to the engine block.

flatheadmurre said:
... There are a couple of resistors on the backside of the regulator if they are corroded in the riveting the cutout won´t work.
Click to expand...

From the looks of it the regulator and resistors all look almost brand new. The sticker on the cover seems to be faded however there's no pitting or corrosion that i can find in the contacts or anywhere on the unit.

Bruce Lancaster said:
OK...if it goes to discharge when speeded up, either it's discharging or wire through ammeter loop is going through backwards...
Let engine go back to idle and feed it a discharge---turn on headlights and step on brake. Which way does gauge go with known discharge? Now rev it back up against the discharge and see what happens.
The charge rate, by the way, is closely regulated, so undernormal loads the regulation puts out just enough ampreage to balance the load with a very slight lean toward charge...so with a 20 amp load from lights, the output would be like 20.1 amps giving only the slightest lean towards charge. You will only see high charging rate on the gauge if battery is run down (leave on lights for 10 minutes with car turned off) and needs a major boost.
Polarity...you have normal 6V pos ground. At regulator, to polarize Disconnect the wire at the regulator terminal marked FLD and use it to momentarily (no longer than 2 seconds) touch the wire to the BAT terminal. There may be a brief spark; this is normal. Do NOT EVER follow directions to do the polarizing with a jumper between reg terminals! This is a procedure for a different (GM mostly) charging circuit that has different ground path.

(note--a fertile area of problems is poor ground path. Make up 2 simple jumpers, pieces of wire with little alligator clips at each end. Jump from G terminal on generator to base stamping of reg, then jump from there to battery ground terminal. See if anything happens)
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem to move at all when the engine is rev'd or at idle. It just stays a hair to the discharge side. however when i turn on the headlights it will move quite a ways to the discharge.

I will examine my grounds tonight and try the jumpers. I feel that could also be an issue as i haven't seen a ground strap from the motor to the body of the vehicle.
 
Unbolt the cover of the regulator and take a look at the relays, you have 3 relays there the one that is adjustable is for voltage control middle is current control and the third is cutout.
If you start and rew up the engine does the cutout close ?
Take some fine fine abrasive and clean the points of the voltage control and current control relays.
Dont bend anything...or adjustment will be off...
 
Check the wiring from the generator to the voltage regulator - it's easy to reverse the arm and field wiring when you replace the generator....
 
flatheadmurre said:
Unbolt the cover of the regulator and take a look at the relays, you have 3 relays there the one that is adjustable is for voltage control middle is current control and the third is cutout.
If you start and rew up the engine does the cutout close ?
Take some fine fine abrasive and clean the points of the voltage control and current control relays.
Dont bend anything...or adjustment will be off...
Click to expand...

When i had the cover off it looked like all three of the contacts had plates that could be moved for adjustment. however i'm not sure if they've been previously moved as the car has had the same symptoms since the begining of my ownership
 
Jaydub211 said:
When i had the cover off it looked like all three of the contacts had plates that could be moved for adjustment. however i'm not sure if they've been previously moved as the car has had the same symptoms since the begining of my ownership
Click to expand...

You wrote adjustable so i asumed an aftermarket that you can adjust with a screwdriwer through the cover ??
Every regulator can be adjusted by bending the relays...but dont start with that yet...
Clean the contact points of the relays first.
Then polarise/check again.
 
flatheadmurre said:
You wrote adjustable so i asumed an aftermarket that you can adjust with a screwdriwer through the cover ??
Every regulator can be adjusted by bending the relays...but dont start with that yet...
Clean the contact points of the relays first.
Then polarise/check again.
Click to expand...

I will take a picture when i get home and post it. There's no adjustability through the cover though. On the side of each relay is a plate that bends 90 degrees at the top and has the contact at the end of it. near the bottom is a screw that sits in the slot of the plate that would allow you to move it up or down. I will clean the points first though like you said and see where that gets me. however like I said before I cant be 100% certain someone else before hasn't changed the gaps of these contacts.
 
It may be as simple as a stuck ammeter needle.

But this will walk you thru the tests.

Prob your reg is not lucas, but the principles are the same.

There are two tests this PDF does not mention that I would do first...

First I would do is check the battery voltage with a multi meter with engine not running and then start engine to see if it goes up.

Second I would remove fan belt and jump a negative wire from battery to D post on generator and see if it turns a few 100 RPM in a clockwise motion as looked from the front.

http://www.sterlingbritishmotoringsociety.org/files/Lucas_Generator_and_Control_Box_Tests.pdf

Do not go fiddling with the regulator re cleaning points or changing settings until after you have definitely ruled out a bad generator or wiring or amp meter , they are critical to settings and you could burn out a good generator if you do not know what you are doing.
 
So examining the regulator at idle and under load, none of the contacts move. I have cleaned them with 400g sand paper but nothing. I did a quick jump on the back terminal of the gen and the field terminal and the ammeter pins to the charge side. So that brings me to believe my problems are in the regulator. Does someone have a guide or know of one for adjusting these? Also which relay controls what. I've got a thick coil relay in front of the battery terminal, a smaller but still thick coil Infront of the field, and a super fine wrap around the relay Infront of the arm terminal
 
You have to understand a bit about how the regulator work.
It´s not going to help starting bending if the resistors aren´t working for start.
The fine winding is voltage control middle winding is current control and last one is cutout.
If nothing is working it´s not an adjustment needed it´s troubleshooting and repair measuring the coils and resistors and making sure all connecions and points are good in the regulator.
 
Could be the gen is charging adequately but the ammeter does not show much. That is how mine is on the 52 Merc. Only time I see it much above the centre line on the ammeter is after a hard start with lots of cranking when the carburetor had drained itself. Otherwise the needle is pretty stable on the centre mark of the ammeter. Turning on the lights has a slight effect towards the discharge side.
 
Any shop manual should provide you with the check procedures for the charging system. I don't see where you posted the battery voltage? What is the battery voltage at rest, then running and then running with the RPM above idle, say 1500 or so?
 
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