gas tanks.........

well, this discussion is what I am looking for.

Brent, maybe I should have phrased that differently. Not looking to put garbage on the road, but not thinking fine points either. That is where you come in.

Lets face it, most people are happy with a #2 car and not looking to win at the cost of 1% of 1%. that is what I mean by driver. A #2 car.

Ronn, understand what I am seeing in the industry from the Service industry side and not the Consumer side.

This forum is a great example of what I am seeing within the hobby. The foundation of this Forum is to discuss the repair of a Model-A, -and the fill-in would be the overall discussion of Model-As in general (vintage photos, tours, etc.) If we are being brutally honest here, what would you say by percentage of members here actually do the majority of restoration/repair work on their Model-A? If there are 5,000 Fordbarn members here, do we think there are 500 participating members that actually do the work? Take a moment to actually count up the participants who contribute here based on their first-hand knowledge. I think we would struggle to list names for even half of that 500 number, ...but for the sake of this, lets say there are 2,000 ppl out of the 5,000 members. That is 20%. So 20% of the membership can do the necessary work to Restore, Repair, or Maintain their Model-A. The rest generally rely on the expertise of friends or repair shops.

Now of that remaining 80% of Model-A owners, they might attempt the most basics of tasks (changing oil, spark plugs, etc.) but again, their lack of skillset and/or repair tools prevents them from getting too advanced, ...therefore they reach out to many cottage shops or small Model-A repair shops around the country to meet their needs. Now here is the struggle due to expectations.

For us, the most frustrating thing I hear out of clients is they paid money for a brand new item and then the mechanic must re-work that item to make it serviceable. It doesn't matter if it is an Ammeter or a Fender, it likely requires major additional work to make it serviceable. To the average participant here, this probably is not that big of a deal, ...but to the 80% of Model-A owners out there, it IS a big deal They want something that is correct and serviceable straight out of the box. So your comment about making a one-size-fits-all gas tank is likely going to be met with criticism.

Now, since we have mentioned 'cottage industries', let me explain this scenario as it pertains to the Model-A hobby in 2025....
There is a need right now for reliable retired people doing small piecemeal or niche jobs within the hobby. Since this topic is about gas tanks, -there is a need for someone to do tanks. I have basically quit taking on tanks because we were getting so many tanks we could not meet the demands and still focus on what our main job is. I am not going to mention a name, but a good friend of mine who is a contributor here was professionally rebuilding Model-A steering gearboxes for major retailers until it was interfering with his regular business. He has given steering gearboxes up now.

Now I want to be crystal clear in prefacing this by saying, there are more than a few 'rebuilders' out there whose work is less than adequate. You find these guys on social media, eBay, etc. peddling their 'Rebuilt' distributors or carburetors, shocks, brakes, etc. as Rebuilt. Their workmanship sux!! I doubt these Rebuilders actually have the ability, the skillset, nor the tooling to return those items to a condition equal to factory specifications however they convince their customer of that by a coat of shiney paint. :mad: The equally troubling problem is the Buyers has no idea whether the 'rebuilt item' is functioning correctly after it has been installed.

So my point is, if someone wants a cottage industry to supplement retirement income, then find original items and correctly restore to factory specifications (-to Fine Point terms by some) and you will have more work than you can do.
 
Ronn, I know what your talking about. Not a trailer queen. One that gets out on the road and enjoys the country drive. You should probably get some kind of figure on what a new tank would cost and then let it be tossed around on this thread to give you an idea what people think. good luck.....
 
Brent and Tom, I appreciate the insightful discussion. Brent you have taken a good bit of time to discuss this in some detail.
so 2000 of 5000 is 40%........much less then I would have expected, so I am learning here. The point of this info is not that I necessarily am going to rebuild gas tanks, but the hope of someone younger seeing the possibilites available and maybe tackling some aspect of quality refurbishment or manufacturer.
I also understand that to build new tanks will be extremely costly and prob not doable.
20 yrs ago, it might have been possible in China, Tiawan etc. Global costs are continually going up as the playing field neutralizes itself out.
The same scaling on gas tanks, could also be done with fenders, interiors to some degree,
bumpers, etc. The fact is, some parts like headlights, never seem to have a problem if they are 30-31, although there is need for quality 28-29 as they didnt hold up as well.
The challenge will always be costs, esp today, vs need of an item. The quality of ammeters has been discussed many times and somehow, I dont understand what the big deal would be for someone to reproduce those in top quality form. Even if the price were 100. each, it would be a worthwhile endeavor.
I hope this thread continues and brings on more insightful thinking. That is how problems are solved.
 
I have a friend that is fabricating a tank to fit in the rear. It will be under the body after the crossmember and before the last rear subrail of the body. Of course will need a fuel pump…
Not sure his plans for gauge/sending unit.
That could be an answer if not showing the car and takes gas out of drivers lap.
If interest, I can get some pictures…just not real soon.
 
Bill, is that not currently being fabricated by Brooksville or similar?

I read something about that in the previous weeks.
 
Bill, is that not currently being fabricated by Brooksville or similar?

I read something about that in the previous weeks.

I'm pretty sure there is an adapter to install a 1932 pass car tank. IMO, the best way to deal with this would be to fab a tank that would use the hole in the firewall for the sediment bulb to attach to. Use an in-tank electric fuel pump in the '32 tank, and pump the fuel up into a quart sized reservoir on the firewall. Have a return line on the opposite side of the reservoir that returns the fuel back into the '32 tank. Use gravity to flow from the reservoir to the stock carburetor. No need for pressure regulators.

Ronn, read the posts on social media on the pages that cater to Model-As.These are owners who only perform the most basic of maintenance. I probably misspoke but my intent was 500 ppl on Fordbarn is likely a big number compared to the 5,000+ members of Fordbarn.

Regarding Ammeters, the most knowledgeable person about repro-ing those was a fellow named John Regan who used to reproduce Model-T Ammeters. John has dementia now, so he is not going to be much help revealing sources & such now.

I would suspect that it would be difficult to make all the pieces of an Ammeter today for $100.00 and be profitable on them. At one time I spoke with John about seeing if his internal pieces could be retrofitted into a repro Model-A Ammeter. We never got that far verifying it.

If you are serious about that venture, I would speak with 3 or 4 of the Model-A parts manufacturers to make sure no one has a quality repro Ammeter in the works. If no, -then I say go for it. I would need to take some time to figure out exactly the steps it would take, but in all honesty, you likely could pull that off with a $200k - $300k investment. The only thing that would be a little nerve-racking (-at least for me) would be if the investment was $200k, then adding a surcharge of $20 to the sale on each one would mean your ROI would begin after the sale of the 10,000th Ammeter. ;) :eek:
 
Bill, is that not currently being fabricated by Brooksville or similar?

I read something about that in the previous weeks.

I think there is a company in Washing ton or Oregon that makes one to fits between the frame rails like the ‘32. I had the website but I lost it when I got a new computer.

Speedway may sell one too.

David Serrano
 
Let's re-think the problem and proposed solutions. Open the tank, remove the baffles and insert a bladder. If designed properly the inlet, outlet and gas gauge could be intergrated as they are now. Sorry, just thinking like Edsel!
 
Bladders are used in aviation and have been for years. They have become pretty expensive too in recent times. They are rebuildable since they do wear through on occasion, but repairs take time too. Piper put tanks together with screws and rivets using proseal tank sealants but they eventually start to seep after 20-years or so and cost a lot to reseal. I've thought about having a plastic tank formed that could be fit into a model A tank. I've also thought about the bladders. All have their draw backs just due to the way the tanks are constructed. If it was modified to be taken apart using screw fasteners to reassemble then bladders and plastic tanks may be possible with some yankee ingenuity. Piecemealing repairs are also possible for good welders and fabricators. I've seen a lot of tanks that could be repaired this way due to holes in the bottom and sides of the top on 28/29 cars. They do like to rust down here in rainy country. Stuff in Kansas could stay out for decades without rusting but they will all rust away eventually.
 
Gaylord,
an interesting proposition...... sounds very doable.

Brent I wasnt thinking 200-300k to tool for ammeters. More of rebuilding originals.
Much like Papanick on speedos or Brentwood Bob on shocks. I have not used either of their products, so cant vouch on that, but that sort of cottage industry. Im sure someone could have a nice sideline there, as the repro ammeters are total garbage.
I was fortunate enough to pick up about 5 repros in Carlisle and the quality looks terrific.
Maybe made in the 1960s-70s. Very nicely built, if maybe not for points showing.
 
Let's re-think the problem and proposed solutions. Open the tank, remove the baffles and insert a bladder. If designed properly the inlet, outlet and gas gauge could be intergrated as they are now. Sorry, just thinking like Edsel!

Well, that definitely sounds like it has merit but lets expand on the idea. To open it, we really need to soak it in something caustic to remove the 'kaboom' when we open it.

Removing the baffles should be easy enough, albeit time consuming as you will need to remove quite a few spot welds. Most tanks you open are going to have rust that could become abrasive, so we probably would want to remove the rust to prevent it from becoming abrasive against the bladder. That probably means we should media-blast the rust and have bare metal.

Now that we have bare metal inside, we probably should consider painting that bare metal with some type of coating to prevent rust in the future.

Now once we have the bladder installed and vacuumed down to collapse it, we can weld the tank together again.It will likely take some practice to make the weld penetrate the cut however we do not want the weld to penetrate too far or it may chaf the bladder once it is inflated which could poke a hole.

Once we have everything rewelded and have the 3 openings that must be attached to the tank so as not to have any leaks, we now have a tank that should be impervious to gasoline. Sure was a lot of work though. Ironically, almost every step it took to install the bladder is a step used to restore the tank to original. To me, it seems like we would be better to eliminate the bladder and restore them like we are doing. Less work and the same outcome IMO. ;)
 
I'm not sure just who was making reproduction 20-0-20 ammeters in the early 70's, but they really didn't seem that bad! The days of Rick's and JC Whitney probably came out of Argentina.

We have one that still works well and kinda looks original enough an untrained eye wouldn't pick up that it is a repop. Those kind of parts are fine for the daily driver. Of course they wouldn't fly in Fine Point judging but that is such a small niche in the Model A community, so who really cares:)

Paul Shinn did a nice video on touching one up to look less 'reproduction' a person could always go that route if they really wanted to.
 
I'm not sure just who was making reproduction 20-0-20 ammeters in the early 70's, but they really didn't seem that bad! The days of Rick's and JC Whitney probably came out of Argentina.

We have one that still works well and kinda looks original enough an untrained eye wouldn't pick up that it is a repop. Those kind of parts are fine for the daily driver. Of course they wouldn't fly in Fine Point judging but that is such a small niche in the Model A community, so who really cares:)

Paul Shinn did a nice video on touching one up to look less 'reproduction' a person could always go that route if they really wanted to.

It isn't really about making them look authentic, ...I find the repro units won't even make it out of the shop after a restoration before they fail. They're that bad!!
 
This is a 10 gallon stainless steel tank from Speedway. When the tank in my avatar went south, I put a similar tank in the bed of the truck. Also did the same thing on a 31 CCPU. I would have no problem putting this in the trunk of a coupe along with a shutoff valve and 6v fuel pump. There are several vendors doing the '32 style tank for Model A's. In spite of what others have said, I suspect the premiums on a liability policy for building or repairing A gas tanks would be higher than a cat's ***.
 

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I considered saddle tanks for my 30 Fordor and gutting the cowl tank for an AC unit and radio, but rejected it. Why? I did not want to ruin a perfectly good tank and part of the charm of the Model A is the cowl tank.
 
This is a 10 gallon stainless steel tank from Speedway. When the tank in my avatar went south, I put a similar tank in the bed of the truck. Also did the same thing on a 31 CCPU. I would have no problem putting this in the trunk of a coupe along with a shutoff valve and 6v fuel pump. There are several vendors doing the '32 style tank for Model A's. In spite of what others have said, I suspect the premiums on a liability policy for building or repairing A gas tanks would be higher than a cat's ***.



...as opposed to the premiums of a Model-T gas tank, an Early V8 tank, -or any other muscle car that reproduction tanks are available for? What would make the Model-A tanks exceed the normal liability value of any of those other tanks??
 
There’s a big difference between the corporations building tanks for Speedway and somebody reproducing tanks in their shop located in a residential area.
 
I would buy a new tank. It would not even need to look exactly like the original as 70% of it is hidden anyway. I could easily see how one could be made with at least 5-7 liter increased size as there is quite a gap at the firewall. I have spoken with a local company that manufactures fuel tanks for race cars and they quoted 1500 euro for a one-off. I assume that larger scale production could cut that almost in half.
 
That is great pricing German guy, but I guess one would have to see what the final product looks like.
As far as throwing a cylindrical tank in the trunk or bed, not what I am really discussing. yes we can also buy aluminum radiators for cheap- but now we are into hot rods.

different topic.
 
I would buy a new tank. It would not even need to look exactly like the original as 70% of it is hidden anyway. I could easily see how one could be made with at least 5-7 liter increased size as there is quite a gap at the firewall. I have spoken with a local company that manufactures fuel tanks for race cars and they quoted 1500 euro for a one-off. I assume that larger scale production could cut that almost in half.

Even if you counted the inside of the tank as a hidden part (-which I think is absurd to count that) I think you are vastly under-estimating how much of the tank is seen. The top-side is seen, along with the bottom side and the front face on a 1930-31 tank. All of the previous area mentioned before along with the firewall is seen on the 1928-29 tanks. So in reality, about 75% of the Model-A gas tank IS seen and not hidden.

I feel like I have somewhat of a understanding about Model-A people and what they will spend. If they can buy a brand new Model-A gas tank for $500 or less, they may overlook some liberties that were taking during construction when compared it to the authenticity of an original. If that tank sells for $2k, then it better be close to authentic looking & functioning, ...and if it is $3k+, then it better be deadnuts accurate -or it just isn't going to sell. The sheer volume of tanks that it is going to take to have a ROI for the entire project is going to mean there will never be a cheap reproduction Model-A gas tanks manufactured.

And to give my opinion on Denis' last comment about liability insurance, the mere size of the stamping dies, the tonnage of the press(es), and the amount of fixtures required to manufacture new Model-A tanks such as we are describing has far surpassed the scope of a 'Cottage Industry' doing this project.
 
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