Frozen Engine - what to do?

V

Vic in E-TN

Well-known member
A young club member purchased a 30 Roadster Saturday night and we brought it to his garage on a trailer. Today he put a new 6-volt battery in and was unable to get the engine to turn over. Also unable to free it up by crank.


This is a first for me. The clutch is functional. One thought is to slowly pull it in third to see if this loosens up the engine. This is before pulling the engine and opening it up.


If the engine is not quite toast, could this pull on a rope be worse. If the engine is completely toast, I guess no harm.


Your thoughts.


Vic
 
First, go for the simple things. The engine might be locked up because the starter is jammed against the flywheel's ring gear. Put the car into third gear (with the ignition key off), put your back against the rear of the car and use your legs as springs to rock the car forward and back. Do this until you hear a metallic clunking sound. That's the Bendix drive freeing up from the ring gear. Then try the starter.
If this doesn't, work, you're into checking other things, such as too long of a bolt holding the starter to the flywheel housing. That would be the bottom and the inside bolts. The top one cannot affect this. Sometimes someone puts a bolt there that is too long and it dead ends against the flywheel, effectively locking it up.
Try these two suggestions first before deciding the engine is toast. It may well be toast, but eliminate the easy possibilities first.
Marshall
 
I'll add to Marshall's thought. Try removing the starter entirely and try again the hand crank.

If the starter is proven to not be the issue, then go after the spark plugs. Remove them and pour 2 ounces of PB Blaster into each hole and let sit for two days. Then try the hand crank again and see if you get ANY movement.

With the starter removed, you CAN put a small/medium pry-bar in the hole and catch teeth on the flywheel to get a "prying start" to moving the engine. You can work the flywheel alternately and possibly get things moving. PB Blaster/time is your friend.

I've been through this with a Gordon Smith compressor engine. Cylinders 1 and 4 are engine in this setup, 2 and 3 become compressor. But its a Model A engine.

Unit had been stored under a local barn while I was building the house/barn. When I recovered it - it was FROZEN. Removal of the head showed that mice had crawled up the exhaust pipe, somehow got through the muffler, somehow got past a cylinder 4 exhaust valve which was open - and set up shop for the winter. Mouse pee is death on a machined surface.

It took disassembly of the entire engine to finally "press out" the piston in cylinder 4. I ended up bringing the engine to a rebuilder to do a full "upper end rebuild" since the crank was pretty good.

A while back I moved the compressor to a new location in my barn. Then I stuffed a rag in the exhaust tailpipe and duct-taped it in place. I see recently the duct tape is untouched. And the engine is still loose. I guess you call this success.

Joe K
 
Last edited:
The engine in my car was frozen and it was because of rusted rings. It required pulling, crank removal, honing, and new rings. I think that, lapping the valves, and cleaning everything would have been sufficient. (I went further, since I had it apart.) The point is, a general inspection should be done to save good components from being ruined for the sake of just getting it running.
 
Valves that are stuck closed can stop rotation. A lot depends on where it was stored and how long it has set up. As was mentioned, rodents can get through some pretty small openings. If cylinders are rusty, the head will have to come off to see how bad it might be and to clean it up. The distributor shaft may be rusty so I pull it and check that. I'd pour a quart of oil down into the valve chamber as well to get some fresh oil down into the main bearings. They may be dried plumb out. Sometimes a person get lucky and the problems are minimal but you won't know till you get there,
 
Rusted rings are the most likely cause. Pour diesel or other 'looseners' in the cylinders, let it set for several days, then put the car in high gear and rock it back and forth. Once started let it run for a while, or drive it a little, then do a compression check to determine if it needs more work or not. Have fun!
 
Frozen rings are the most likely cause. Pour diesel or other 'loosener' thru the spark plug holes, let set for several days, then put the car in high gear and rock it back and forth, it should now turn over. Start the engine and let it run for a while or better yet drive it around the block. Now do a compression check to determine if it needs any internal work. If it doesn't smoke or knock drive it and enjoy it. Have fun!
 
If you do pull the car and while it seems the natural place to do so; don't tie the rope, chain, tow strap, or whatever in the center of the axle.
 
I made this copying Tom Wesenburgs design to unstick my brothers Model A engine. This was made from a bad starters end bell using a old gear from a bendix. A nut was welded on the opposite end of the shaft going thru so it could be turned with a socket and breaker bar. My brother had the hand crank engaged and was standing on it and I was turning the flywheel with the fixture pictured. This broke loose his stuck engine.
 

Attachments

  • thumbnail_IMG_7763.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7763.jpg
    41.1 KB · Views: 32
  • thumbnail_IMG_7764.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7764.jpg
    37.8 KB · Views: 26
  • thumbnail_IMG_7765.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7765.jpg
    54.6 KB · Views: 28
  • thumbnail_IMG_7766.jpg
    thumbnail_IMG_7766.jpg
    53.9 KB · Views: 26
If you pull the starter check to see if any of the Bendix bolts fell out. There may be a bolt at the bottom of the flywheel locking it up.

Mike
 
Pulled the starter and it spun with jumper cables. They used a borascope and took several pictures through the spark plug holes. Rust inside the cylinders was terrible and the engine was pronounced toast. I bought a borascope a few years ago for less than $100 and it is useful for many things. Thanks for your thoughts. Friend needs another engine.


Vic
 
Friend needs another engine.
Click to expand...
Pull the head before you jump to that conclusion. My experience with boroscopes and steam turbines has been that things generally look "worse" through a boroscope. Best would be actual "eyes on."

It may even be possible to "stone out" without disassembly of the engine. It helps a lot if you can get it to move ever so little.

A frozen engine is a $50 "core." An engine with a known issue but operable automatically becomes a $300 engine.

Going back to my Gordon-Smith Compressor frozen engine: the upper end repair which was disassembly, bore out, new pistons/rings, "tighten up" lower engine was $750 - and this back in 1986.

Today I might play that wallet "differently."

Ever the mechanical optimist.
Joe K
 
Last edited:
'Glad you found the problem, but 'sad that your friend is going to have a very expensive purchase staring him in the face. GOOD Model A engines aren't cheap. Only the cores and junk ones are - for a reason.
With as much rust as you found in the cylinders, a head gasket might have let loose in a couple places and left water in the cylinders. Or spark plugs had been left out and water got inside the engine. Possibly mice took up residence in the cylinders and relieved themselves there. Toxic stuff. No matter the cause. Don't junk the engine just yet. In your free time, disassemble it and see what's salvageable. If the block is not cracked or bored to the max (0.125" over), it can be rebuilt and put back into service. Not everyone can afford a $10,000 new engine. A $3500 rebuild is a lot more appealing to some of us with shallow pockets. Much as I'd love the new engine with its wonderful features, I just don't see one in this retired working man's future. Sigh...
Marshall
 
While not exactly budget friendly A block that's bored to the limit Crack free still is quite valuable as you can sleeve it back to original The engine in my model A. has been sleeve back to original.
 
I agree with Marshall. A 10k new engine will never be in my budget. 4k I get.......

on another note- Ild rather buy 4 300. engines and take a chance. to me that is half the fun!
 
Agreed. Fortunately, there is room in this hobby for both extremes in engine cost. Guys I've talked to and read about who laid out long green for their $10K engines have no regrets. They got what they wanted. The price was worth it to them. On the other extreme, I just installed a late 1990's rebuilt short block engine that had never been run and had been in storage all these years. It was rebuilt by the premier Babbitt guy in this area at the time. Cost? $2750. Although it doesn't have all the bells and whistles that the $10K engine has, it is quiet, smooth and even with the stock, boring camshaft, the new 5.5 head gives it some good pep. That price and quality don't come along every day, of course. But it proves that if you look hard enough and ask around enough, good things may fall into your lap. The owner of the $2750 engine is just as happy as those guys with their $10K engines.
Marshall
 

Attachments

  • Driver's side of engine.jpg
    Driver's side of engine.jpg
    68 KB · Views: 29
Years back I knew a farmer that loved going to the farm auctions to buy A-C tractors for his collection. He got them super cheap if the engines were frozen. He would drag them onto his trailer. Remove the plugs and pour Marvel Mystery Oil down the holes. He would put the tractor in gear and chain it loosely to his trailer. On the drive home the rocking back and forth would always free up the stuck engine without creating any further issues.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top