Frame rivets… or … weld ?

hardtimes

hardtimes

Well-known member
Frame rivets… or … weld ?

I have to replace the front cross member
on ‘30/31 frame.
This is just driver/beater, but want a good strong job.
Do parts houses sell rivets ?

Welding will most likely be easier and strong.
I haven't riveted, since my last riveted C 130 Hercules in the 60s. Had to have bucker… no bucker these days !!

I guess that leaves welding, eh.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

It depends. Remember that you are a caretaker for your car. In the future will someone be unhappy with the fact that you welded it?

I have not done a lot of riveting but what I have done has worked well. I bought some rivets from McMaster Carr. The rivets expend in the holes to make a tight connection. For the frame I think you will have to heat the rivets to a dull red.

As an aside: Rolls Royce used tapered bolts and nuts on their frames in the 30's. The holes would be tapered too so that when the bolts were drawn up the connection was tight.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Rivets but more of an investment
You need an air driven rivet gun and figure out a buck for the back side (head) of the rivet.it can be done with heat and a hammer but likely takes two people.
Once you figure out the size rivets can be had from JayCee Rivets or Big Flats
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

The front crossmember of my Tudor had been bolted together and since the frame flexes, the holes became too large for an oversize rivet (hole diameter max of 1/32 over rivet size). I TIG welded the holes and then redrilled them to take the original size 1/4" rivets and then hot riveted them. Jim Dix of Big Flats Rivets has exactly the rivets you will need (http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/catalog-notes.html). He also has bucking jacks to help you rivet.
Strongly suggest NOT to weld the frame pieces together as the frame will flex at the joints.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Welding is a poor choice because the rest of the frame is riveted and thus very flexible. If you weld the front crossmember into place, very high stresses will develop at it because the welding makes it too stiff. Bolting the crossmember into place is a much better choice than welding it. Make the bolt-to-hole fit no more than 0.003".
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

If bolting the top rail bolts must be flat with the rail. Otherwise fender won’t fit…..might cut holes in welting but problematic
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

A person needs to find a helper to rivet anything on a model A frame. It's too large and ungainly to do it by yourself unless you know how to set things up to your advantage. Bucking bars have to be heavy for steel rivets and a person needs at least a 5X rivet gun to buck them down. They could be driven with a big hammer and a special made rivet set but that's a lot of work. Heat the buck tail with an oxy-acetylene torch and beat on it till it's either fully bucked or till it work hardens then heat it some more & repeat. Rivets are usually bucked from the head side but there is no hard and fast rules on that. Rivet tails are cut to extend out past the joint by about 1 and 1/2 of the diameter of the rivet. They should buck down to 1/2 the diameter of the rivet. Some buck tails have a rounded pan shaped tail in similar shape to the heads but that would take a special preparation of the bucking bar to get that shape. It would be optional to do that on these frames but some rivets were done that way. Buck tails are flat in aviation riveting methods.

There is a good article on frame riveting in one of the Restorer series of books. They show some of the bucking bar shapes & sizes that work well plus a good run down on techniques. Ford used some great big hydro-pneumatic squeezers to put them together back in the day.
 
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Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Big Flats Rivets is another choice. We use them with some frequency at the museum. Just heat the rivet dull red hot, insert and hammer it home. They sell the correct bucking fixtures for the different rivets used in different applications.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Bob Bidonde said:
Welding is a poor choice because the rest of the frame is riveted and thus very flexible. If you weld the front crossmember into place, very high stresses will develop at it because the welding makes it too stiff. Bolting the crossmember into place is a much better choice than welding it. Make the bolt-to-hole fit no more than 0.003".
Click to expand...

Hey Bob,
Thanks for the good useful advice/ info !
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

abachman3 said:
Big Flats Rivets is another choice. We use them with some frequency at the museum. Just heat the rivet dull red hot, insert and hammer it home. They sell the correct bucking fixtures for the different rivets used in different applications.
Click to expand...

I know guys who run their restoration shop/museum for the Simi Valley Club ….Im a member of.
Good tip ! They probably have equipment/knowledge. I check.
Will also check about…. Big Flats Rivets.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Oldbluoval said:
If bolting the top rail bolts must be flat with the rail. Otherwise fender won’t fit…..might cut holes in welting but problematic
Click to expand...

Thanks,
but that won’t be a problem …as Im working a ‘highboy’ project.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

hardtimes said:
Thanks,
but that won’t be a problem …as Im working a ‘highboy’ project.
Click to expand...

In that case, TIG weld EVERY joint in the frame. You will need all the stiffness you can get. Add gussets at the corners also. Full or at least skip boxing will greatly improve handling also. A tubular "K" type center cross member will help keep things in alignment if you add any horsepower.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

Pete said:
In that case, TIG weld EVERY joint in the frame. You will need all the stiffness you can get. Add gussets at the corners also. Full or at least skip boxing will greatly improve handling also. A tubular "K" type center cross member will help keep things in alignment if you add any horsepower.
Click to expand...

This is the condition that I received this A. Just trying to make the best of what was received. The texas seller misrepresented/lied about the condition of this A.

I do not have the skill and or time to make it stock again.
 
Re: Frame rivets… or … weld ?

the odd time we had to do frame rivets we had a HD air chisel with a concaved bit, two guys, one on the air chisel and one on the heavy dolly. they became real tight and never loosened up.
i would say the rivets are the way to go if you can do it.
i forgot to say make sure you have hearing protection its loud.
ou
 
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