Ford Model A & B Motors

old28 said:
Kurt in NJ ---Thanks for the Dyno Sheet tests. A lot of information and combinations. As I start moving forward on this project I feel like a motor in the 75-90 HP range will work well for my project. I am looking at running a 28 roadster with an A motor, 39 trans & a Banjo rear end in the TROG race on the beach at Pismo Beach, CA in 2017.

hardtimes -- What Cam, Bore, Pistons, Head & CR, Est HP in the B Motor?
What is the name of the book you are talking about? Thanks for any help.
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You are welcome to any info that you hopefully find helpful :), as that's what this place/forum is about.
My bore is 4", pistons are Egge with special ordered compression height...that makes piston tops EVEN with top of block. Use of pistons with modern thin rings is what I did. Cam/lifters are special treat for this engine, as the lifters are Chrysler part #VL-20, what I call BIG FOOT lifters, as no lifters avail have a foot as large. In some A/B engines, this lifter has to be prepped to avoid cam, etc. But not in my B as they fit/cleared everything perfectly :) ! The lifter bore has to be enlarged slightly(reamed) to fit these lifters, but good news here, is that old worn out bores are made perfect again ! The CAM is a NOS B cam that I sent (lifters and cam) to Pete , senior member here. Pete is a cam expert for half century or more. Pete matched my lifters and cam profile perfectly to compliment each other with HIS special grind ! The lifters rotate amazingly well with his work ! Pete will have to know how your engine will be configured (carb(s), bore, comp ratio, etc, etc) to know which grind will make engine work well...and mine does :D
I happen to be lucky to have a choice of heads and comp ratios to work with, from 6:1 thru 8:1 and also an original Schofield OHV Head 6:1. originally. I've just taken off a 7:1 super Winfield alum that worked well. It now runs great with a Snyder 6:1, but I'm about to install Tod's head which I now have at near 8:1.
You will find in THE book, how to full oil Pressure your block and ,IMO, well worth the meager time/effort and $. This is a poured babbitt main and rod B block, drilled C crank with special V8 flathead oil pump (45lbs). I did custom oil pan work to keep oil available, at all times, to the pump. You will have fun doing as much as you can do yourself ! Good luck.
 
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old28 said:
Dodge -- Do you know if a 330 or 340 camshaft will make 75+ HP? New to this forum, who is Tod"s Heads?

hardtimes -- That good news on the exhaust. Do you have a intake size in mind for my
HP range.
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'who is TOD's Heads'
Tod is a senior member here and a maker of 'things extraordinary' :D ! He builds stuff (Heads and Blocks) for us A/B guys , blocks for V8 racers and stuff for others in industry ! Read all back threads with Tod name, including recent threads about the Newly minted crowfoot flathead on the B engine pictured below. You can contact Tod , if so inclined, for his products/heads. I've done some 'field testing' on the pictured Winfield (red) Crowfoot and that is in the threads for you to read/know :)
One head pic is from Tod at about 6:1. Other pic of same head now at approx. 8:1cr.
 

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hardtimes -- Thank you for the extra information on your motor. This A/B stuff is all new to me after 40 years of front motor drag racing with BBC engine. I have always built my own motor so I look forward to doing an A unit in the future.
Do you feel (IYO) that this motor at around 85-90 HP and 6.5 or a bit more CR will hold up with poured rods & mains in 1/8 mile drag racing on the sand with street tires. Really don,t want to go to the high dollar insert rods & main. I read a bunch of Tod's posts that are on the forum, very good stuff. I will cal on the book so I can continue on my learning program. Better to get it right the first time as parts are no cheep.
 
Poured babbitt rods and mains will handle 85-90 hp up to about 4000 rpm without full pressure oil. I have babbitt in an A block with more HP than that, do hillclimbs with no probs, have stock oil except for pressure center main and opened up the stock oil pump and a full flow filter. The key up in that HP range is ports and cam. Agree with Hardtimes no need to increase the exhaust valve size.
 
old28 said:
hardtimes -- Thank you for the extra information on your motor. This A/B stuff is all new to me after 40 years of front motor drag racing with BBC engine. I have always built my own motor so I look forward to doing an A unit in the future.
Do you feel (IYO) that this motor at around 85-90 HP and 6.5 or a bit more CR will hold up with poured rods & mains in 1/8 mile drag racing on the sand with street tires. Really don,t want to go to the high dollar insert rods & main. I read a bunch of Tod's posts that are on the forum, very good stuff. I will cal on the book so I can continue on my learning program. Better to get it right the first time as parts are no cheep.
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Pay attn. to PC/SR has said, as good info, indeed :) ! My intakes are 1.75 which seem to fit well in the B block. No matter which block you use....use CAUTION when porting or having porting work done. Smoothing out is GOOD, but taking tooo much where there ain't much, can lead into water :eek: ! Since you are an experienced drag guy, your questions make more and good sense now ! When you contact Mr. (B block ;)) Brierley, ask him the same question....i.e.-poured mains/rods and using to drag race. Jim has maybe gone as fast on salt with B banger, as you have on strip with BBC :D ! Also , on drag strips with banger, when most here weren't, or were pups ! His book WILL save you time and $, but he seems very available to answer/clarify for those of us who need pictures, eh :p

Contact Tod for possible 6.5 head info, as he is the 'maker' of stuff.
And, as said priorly...full oil pressure is the A/B friend.
 
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PC/SR --- I think that any time and money spent on a full flow pressure oil system will pay back well. Any advantage in back cut stainless valves? I will go with 1.75 intake and stock exhaust. As I ran a dual 94 carb setup on my last 194" Chevy 6 cylinder dragster I will run the same setup on this A motor with a home built intake. That is good news to the pocket book on the HP/Babbitt combination. I think the A & B motor are a lot like some 6 cylinder as they like a little port & polish, and HP is all about intake, air flow & cams.

I have not been on this site until now. I have spent years over on the HAMB site and have build thread of my last 50's style 6 cylinder dragster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/sdra-dragster-for-the-coast-build-thread.603598/. Lots of good information & good people on the HAMB. I feel right at home on the FORD Barn and have got a lot of fine information, I am one of the guys that for sure does not have any background with A motors and will ask questions until I think I am ready to test the waters on a build.

hardtimes --- I agree with all you said and full oil pressure setup will be in the motor. I ran a Blowen/Alcohol 502 BBC in my N/E-1 dragster and off the index (7.50) my wife has ran 7.02@199.62 and I am sure Jims B would put us to shame. Cubic Inches ain't every thing as we had a 292"+ 6 cylinder dragster in the class that ran the same 7.50 index and was very competative. It aways comes back to the old saying (SPEED COST MONEY, HOW MUCH YOU GOT). At a young 69 I want to play in a new sand pile. I think this will be very rewarding.
 
old28 said:
PC/SR --- I think that any time and money spent on a full flow pressure oil system will pay back well. Any advantage in back cut stainless valves? I will go with 1.75 intake and stock exhaust. As I ran a dual 94 carb setup on my last 194" Chevy 6 cylinder dragster I will run the same setup on this A motor with a home built intake. That is good news to the pocket book on the HP/Babbitt combination. I think the A & B motor are a lot like some 6 cylinder as they like a little port & polish, and HP is all about intake, air flow & cams.

I have not been on this site until now. I have spent years over on the HAMB site and have build thread of my last 50's style 6 cylinder dragster http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/sdra-dragster-for-the-coast-build-thread.603598/. Lots of good information & good people on the HAMB. I feel right at home on the FORD Barn and have got a lot of fine information, I am one of the guys that for sure does not have any background with A motors and will ask questions until I think I am ready to test the waters on a build.

hardtimes --- I agree with all you said and full oil pressure setup will be in the motor. I ran a Blowen/Alcohol 502 BBC in my N/E-1 dragster and off the index (7.50) my wife has ran 7.02@199.62 and I am sure Jims B would put us to shame. Cubic Inches ain't every thing as we had a 292"+ 6 cylinder dragster in the class that ran the same 7.50 index and was very competative. It aways comes back to the old saying (SPEED COST MONEY, HOW MUCH YOU GOT). At a young 69 I want to play in a new sand pile. I think this will be very rewarding.
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Well, I did not mention a LOT of 'things' done with my new B. But, you have hit upon one of these things. My stainless valves are cut tulip shape/back cut, to encourage best flow.
IMO, if you are going for HARD work from your A/B, besides full flow oil/filtered, balancing is real important. I've just installed a custom crank balancer on my older B (in roadster) and since it was finely balanced when built, I'm expecting more longevity from the new C drilled crank that I use. I know guys who have broken their cranks/engines....until they put a balancer on the nose of their crank.
You in Bakersfield ? 100 mi away, or I'd like to help you. You guys have too much fun up there. I hear that you are having swap meet this Friday/Saturday, is that true ? Along with antique nationals :)
 
hardtimes -- Sorry for that, I have moved back to Camarillo, the city I worked at for 35 years. We moved back last June and i had not been on this site for a long time. As I am just getting all my facts in order it will be a while before any building is started. I will let you know. Where are you located?
The A & B are a lot like the Chevy 6 when it comes to balancers. Lots of 194 & 250 that have been built up a little will brake a crank or mess up main and rod bearing for need of a balancer. Nice thing was that you could install a nutral SBC unit with only a little work and cost.
Don't know about the swap meet, but a few years ago the Model A club had a big meet at the fairgrounds in Bakersfield and they had a great swap meet.
 
old28 said:
hardtimes -- Sorry for that, I have moved back to Camarillo, the city I worked at for 35 years. We moved back last June and i had not been on this site for a long time. As I am just getting all my facts in order it will be a while before any building is started. I will let you know. Where are you located?
The A & B are a lot like the Chevy 6 when it comes to balancers. Lots of 194 & 250 that have been built up a little will brake a crank or mess up main and rod bearing for need of a balancer. Nice thing was that you could install a nutral SBC unit with only a little work and cost.
Don't know about the swap meet, but a few years ago the Model A club had a big meet at the fairgrounds in Bakersfield and they had a great swap meet.
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Located in SFV, westerly end.
 
Only a 25 min trip if traffic is moving or an hour and a half at rush hour. When I get some parts on site I would love to have you take a look & set me in the right direction. Thanks for the offer, your good people on this site as on the HAMB.

Any one know where I might find a stock 28-31 Model A frame for cheep?
A boxed frame would be a plus.
Will be installing an A motor & banjo rear end with closed drive line.
 
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PC/SR -- I have been reading everything I can dig up on A & B motor and I would like to pass a few things your way if I can. I am leaning to a motor set up this way for a TROG car for the hard pack 1/8 mile sand drags at Pismo Beach in 2017.

All others please jump in as I want to get input from as many builders as I can.

Car will weigh between 2500 - 3000 #'s
Street tires only, 4.11 or 4.56 rear gears
A motor Babbitt bearings, pressure center main oiling.
Bore - 4" (.125 over), 7.1 head, Stipe Windfield Full race Cam (mid to top end)
Mill .060 to .075 of head to reduce chamber size & help increase CR.
1.70 intake, fabricated 2x2 or 2x3 intake W/94 carbs
Run a 1939 Top Loader trans.
I will balance the whole rotating assembly
Lighten the fly wheel & run an 9" clutch
Hope to make 95 - 100 HP

This motor will be raced only two weekend per year, about 20 1/8 passes and the build is for TROG racing only.
 
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Basically sounds good to me. Some random thoughts. Without pressure oil you are limited to about 4k rpm or a bit over if the line is close and you do not want to shift. (4k is the conventional wisdom for peak rpm anyway. Have never seen it documented and have not had the inclination to go faster and test it.)
Nor have I run on sand, so cannot really comment on the rear axle ratios, but I tend to think the 4.56 may run out of rpms fairly quick, even if the sand slows you down. Talking to TROG racers would be more help on that. You might think about using the '38 transmission gearset, which has higher ratios than the '39 and let you last a little longer before the shift. Check the Van Pelt transmission website for specs on the ratios.
Ports were mentioned above. The A's can be opened up.
Don't know the specs on that Stipe cam but again, you do not need a cam that peaks out much over 4k. It's not a Bonneville motor and you do not need a BV cam that peaks way higher. Check with Stipe on that and get his thoughts. Get Dan McEachern metal cam gears. Watch the clearance between the cam and crank gears. .003-.004.
If you plan to mill the head, first check the piston clearance. A friend milled head once and then had to have the piston tops milled for clearance. Measure before spending money on that.
Two 94's will work for 100 hp.
Spend time with Jim Brierely's book.
Good luck. I wanted to get in that race, but my speedster body style does not meet their requirements.
 
P/C, Hate to tell you this but '38 and '39 V8 gears are the same eatio, only the syncro was improved. Zephyr gears are a different story.
 
PC/SR -- I ordered Jim's book, will be here next week. Then I get down to some serious reading & learning.
How much piston clearance would you want for a motor that may be right at 4000 RPM at the finish? I have taken note of the other item's you put out there.
I am surprised that your speedster body (if 1934 or older) would not be OK as they have some belly tank racers that are not OEM bodys. I will be there this year to take pictures, ask questions and learn.
 
forever4 said:
Tax returns are due Monday, April 18. Don't forget to update yours. :D
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Ha, ha...funny , but true :)
Ya know how when 'family' shows up when a guy is perceived as being rich ? Well, I heard this rumor that his uncle, spam/sam/something or other..is looking for him...:eek::D
 
Jim B: I always defer to your knowledge, wisdom, experience and expertise, not to mention deference to my elders. I am now running the 28 tooth cluster with the 2.82 1st gear, which I understand was standard in '38(and meant as a possibility for Old28) as opposed to the 29 tooth cluster with the 3.11 first gear, which I understand was standard on '39s. However, as I thumb through Van Pelt's book, it looks like you might get both of these both years. (http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_trans-gearratios.htm his book is more detailed.) If I find anything more definitive I will email it down.

Old28: I would not go less than .045 piston clearance with a 3 bearing A crank, but as noted above, would defer to Mr. Brierely. I have heard some guys go under .045. I use .050 myself. Also, if you are building the trans or changing parts, you need Van Pelts book, because these parts are generally interchangable but there are tricks and variations. (My speedster body is not a stock or period creation, hence not elgible for TROC.)
 
PC/SR said:
Jim B: I always defer to your knowledge, wisdom, experience and expertise, not to mention deference to my elders. I am now running the 28 tooth cluster with the 2.82 1st gear, which I understand was standard in '38(and meant as a possibility for Old28) as opposed to the 29 tooth cluster with the 3.11 first gear, which I understand was standard on '39s. However, as I thumb through Van Pelt's book, it looks like you might get both of these both years. (http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_trans-gearratios.htm his book is more detailed.) If I find anything more definitive I will email it down.

Old28: I would not go less than .045 piston clearance with a 3 bearing A crank, but as noted above, would defer to Mr. Brierely. I have heard some guys go under .045. I use .050 myself. Also, if you are building the trans or changing parts, you need Van Pelts book, because these parts are generally interchangable but there are tricks and variations. (My speedster body is not a stock or period creation, hence not elgible for TROC.)
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Hey PC/SR,
I defer to both of you guys banger knowledge:) !
My thoughts are that you mean .0045 and/or .005 for piston clearance ?
Anyway, the only trans gears in the '39 era that I'm familiar with, that will give / make a difference from the trans end(i.e.-allowing higher wind up rpm), are the zephyr SECOND gear.
When combined with various rear end gear/tire ratios...I get lost as to end results :p
 
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